Almost the same options as Tiger soldiers. don't you feel there's some overlapping there? I have the feeling there's gonna be some AD trooper role struggle Tigers are confirmed for invincible so far. Just by it's profile baselinerequisites (High-med CC, BS13, PH13, ARM3, PB3-6 2 W), This troop will probably cost between 45-59 points. I don't expect cost reductions via irregular or Impetuous orders. So it's cost will probably be similar to a Daofei and it will not have direct templates... so, expect nothing similar to a crusader. The green parts seem to be Invincible signature collors/patern, nothing else. And with mimetism will have even more overlapping with the tiger. the most Interesting rules to him in my opinion would be dogged, stealth and NCO. But somehow I don't think it'll have most of them. It's rumoured that more concepts of IA are going tu surface soon
1. If your estimation of the baseline is 45-59 points, then what room will it have for anything that makes it worth fielding? 2. That baseline IS a Crusader with 2 wounds.
Crusaders have Movement 4-2, CC15 (LOW), Physics 11, BTS3, A miserable knife and they have flamthrower access And of course a ARM3 BTS3 Liu xing will be still too close to the tiger (ARM2, BTS3). so it has to have something else So, yeah expect an even more expensive troop. +12 points or more. I have High hopes on the BS one, because tigers are pretty vulnerable to templates and shotguns.
Tigers don't have BTS :) Yeah, I'm really hoping it won't be just a Zuyong with wings. I'm hoping for that 50-60 point model that means more gear and make it different from the Tiger ('cause honestly, I think in general I'd rather take a Tiger to use that sweet Mimetism and low cost to mess up opponent's plans). Even better if it's sufficiently well equipped so that you can do Hac Tao shell games. "Do I have 70 points in my DZ... or your DZ?" Just... you know... atm we don't have any information to go on so my hype meter is set to "expect disappointment"
Honestly, for it to reach that 50-70 cost area, it'd ( hopefully ) have to have a nice selection of good skills/stats. Now, if we are to assume the playing of Hac Tao shell games... it'd suffice to ask for a potentially comparable fighter? Perhaps ditching strength through visual mods and embracing some extra firepower potential by way of skills like Fatality, Full Auto or Marksmanship, or other similar purpose ''My attacks hurt more'' skills? ( This is probably the fourth time I'm saying this, but... Full Auto Lv1 wouldn't go amiss. ).
Woops, my bad you're totally right. No BTS That's precisely why the dossier has worried me. Without taking in consideration Multi-rifle and D-charges, it seems the weaponry between tiger and Liuxing overlaps. That's not precisely good, but rules like dogged, NCO or stealth can make it shine. specially making a wild entry in the enemy deployment And having sufered and played the Tohaa gao-tarsos, I can asure you a 2 wound paratrooper can be decisive.
Okay, dossier alone tells us we're not looking at a Hac Tao statline. I think a statline like Hac Tao and a lesser supporting set of skills would be worth approximately TO Camo, but since the dossier shows the new line armour we're looking at ARM/BTS 3/3 and by extension fairly human levels of BS and PH. To reach 70 points, we'd be looking at fairly outlandish sets of skills and I don't think that's part of Yu Jing's skill set. Particularly since a normal CCW tells us it's not going to be some sort of Jet-powered Domaru. Unless they shoot the estimated value of AD on HI through the roof. I have no doubt the Gao-Tarsos is good, but they also start at the cost of a Tiger or Zuyong. I also have no doubt a Zuyong with AD would be decent as long as they don't put too much HI-tax on AD, and as long as the combi profile is still in the upper 30's (or really damned close to 40) it'd see play, but it'd be a bit dull. Tiger to stack MODs, Liu Xing to be a more robust rock and their respective specialist profiles for more niche work. D-Charges tells me we might see an Engineer profile on them, but might also be for the Hacker considering how Yu Jing arm their hackers. Natural Born Warrior would be sweet, though.
Hmm, looking things over again here are my predictions. The Liu Xing will have Shang Ji level stats (doesn't look like it has the ballistic cloth or light plating of our ARM 3 HI), perhaps dumping down BTS to 3 from 6. Only having a CCW instead of a special CCW means CC16-18 but no special additional rules like MA (and I'm guessing no access to Stealth). While a weird visor isn't indicative of special visor options (both the Su-Jian and Yan Huo have 4-eyed visors after all) I think in this case it being flipped up AND being 4-eyed is indicative of some level of MSV. I'm going to put money on MSV2, but I'm not married to it. Also, note those clawed boots (it shares them with the Zencha actually). That seems important. Know where else we've seen clawed boots in the concept art before? The Shikami. So my guess is MSV2 and Climbing Plus alongside its combat jump ability. If I'm wrong about anything though, it is probably the MSV2 (since the 4-eyed visor isn't definitive, but clawed boots are definitely non-standard on the rest of our HI). Zencha? While I want an ambush camo unit with Superior Infiltration, I think others are probably right. FD2, Limited Camo, Mimetism. But again, it has those strange clawed boots. So my outside guess is this sucker will have Climbing Plus as well (CB making up for taking the Shikami by giving us two hardcore parkour HI? Who knows!). That said, if those clawed boots aren't Climbing Plus, then expect these things to have mountain terrain or something. But I'm putting good money on Climbing Plus.
Su-Jian and Yan Huo are some of our few BS 14 units. I might be imagining things, but the newer Hsien and newer Hac Tao also has a version of them. So does the Guijia (on the breast plate where the pilot is housed). Nice one on the boots, hadn't noticed that. Climbing or Jumping on Zhansha makes sense, Super-Jump (which the Shikami also has) makes sense for the Liu Xing. Super-Jump for these boots maybe?
Yeah, which is basically non-useful. It's stuck in your DZ, when KHDs need to be where the AHDs are, and the AHDs need to be in midfield. ===== I know it's bad form to go to the Tohaa to compare statlines, but the Gao-Rael and Gao-Tarsos imply that Combat Jump on a ~2W profile is about the cost of MSV2. So, ~6pts? I'm honestly expecting the cheapest possible Liu Xing to be about +10pts over a Tiger. That's a Zuyong with wings and Mimetism. Nothing fancy. I realize that really steps on the Tiger's toes, though, so the Liu Xing is probably going to be beefier than that. I'd want to add a deflector L2 to the profile as a bare minimum, and that's built into the armor, not in a Tinbot. Climbing Plus would be entertaining, but I'd really rather have Superjump (or best of all, both!). Automedikit would also be interesting and thematic, since Airborne troops need to keep fighting until the heavy stuff arrives to bail them out. So, a Zuyong with wings and Mimetism, Deflector L2, and Automedikit. Plus whatever the boots give, preferably Superjump. I really like the comparison to the Daofei+Guilang combo, and I think that would be a good relationship for the Liu Xing+Tigers to have. But objectively what the Daofei has over the Guilang is a better gun (multirifle or bigger v combi) and another wound. The ARM bonus is negligible for it's combat effect, so I'd be OK with ARM3 Liu Xing.
Yeah, pretty much. Problem is, while the guilangs are lacking in term of firepower when compared to the daofei (no SWC weapon, BS11 vs BS13), it's definitely not the case for the tigers who already are exceptionally good AD gunfighters with their mimestism, BS 13, DTW and spitfire options. If guilangs had this kind of profile you can be sure as hell we would see less Daofei on the table (though, guilangs are only AVA2 so maybe not...). Honestly it looks really hard to top the tiger's firepower on an HI AD unit without dangerously drifting into "broken" territory. Multi-rifle is really a good call here, maybe BS14, but i feel like any kind of MSV/fatality/full auto would be too much. In the end, what's left is to play on the tiger's weaknesses: - low mobility -> Since it's an HI it already has 4-4 instead of 4-2 which is good, but stuff like multiterrain or super-jump/climbing plus could work too. - Melee Vulnerability -> We already know it has a sword, so martial art could be a thing (also stealth would help) - Tackling heavy stuff -> yeah sure spray and pray is an option, but AP/shock ammo are good things to have so the multi-rifle is welcome, and if needed there's also D-charges (which, with decent CC, could be used effectively).
I mean, repeaters are a thing. It's how I get around the only KHD in PanOceania being stuck in my deployment zone. _____________________________________________________________________ For me, the first true HI drop troop should really be doubling down on that toughness. So I 100% agree that Dogged would be a great fit. The Tiger is also valuable for it's defensive tech, so to build something different but also effective might suggest going in the opposite direction and providing MSV1 on some or all loadouts. Middling CC (17-20) and MA1 would certainly also be useful, especially because of the secondary benefits which that would bring, quite apart from the inherent value to a unit which will be (by its nature) getting in close and personal often and easily. I also agree that Climbing + and Multiterrain would do a lot to mark it out as different, as lack of mobility post drop is one of the challenges which defines the role of the Tiger Soldier.
Alright, having had time to mull it over, here is my general prediction: LIÚ XĪNG Regular/Not-Impetuous/Cube MOV: 4-4 CC: 18 BS: 14 PH: 14 WIP: 13 ARM: 4 BTS: 6 W: 2 S: 2 AVA: 1 (2 for Invincible Army) Equipment: MSV L2 Special Skills: AD: Combat Jump, Climbing Plus, V: Dogged Loadout #1: MULTI Rifle, D-charges, Pistol, CCW Loadout #2: Boarding Shotgun, D-charges, Pistol, CCW Loadout #3: (Forward Observer) MULTI Rifle, D-charges, Pistol, CCW Loadout #4: (Assault Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, D-charge, Pistol, CCW Loadout #5: Spitfire, Pistol, CCW I think folks are right that outright aggression is the way to go on this. Avoid debuff rules (Mimetism and the like), but give it an aggressive load out. MSV gives it mid-field anti-camo without resorting to a DTWs (which would step on the Tiger). Dogged means it isn't just a hackable version of the 2W drop troops that already exist in other factions. Climbing Plus gives it something no other AD trooper really has (especially not the slower MI ones) and that is post-drop mobility (only the Garuda really matches it here, but in a different way). Now, the above is super expensive, but I think that's the way to go for this thing. Make it a line-breaker, the kind of aggressive piece that can drop in and roll up a flank to give your button-pushers some breathing room. The Tigers are still useful and distinctive next to it, but it also performs the AD role in a way they simply can't due to its boosted toughness and mobility. Dogged lets it try for some riskier drops in covered locations, MSV gives it some potential synergy options with smoke tossers but also lets it deal with camo from outside of template range, climbing plus means that once it is on the field it can move to some dominant firing positions and win via range/position control. Now, it could be rocking some new rules as well (CB do love their new rules) so I'm taking my prediction with a metric ton of salt, but I wouldn't be surprised if that ends up being pretty durn close. Now, if I were making a beardy-ass wishlist version I'd probably grab Frenzy on it, dump the BS to 13, the ARM and BTS to 3, and give it a KHD profile... But I'm not sure if CB will give these things the min-max treatment, so I'll stay conservative and bloat it up in a few places (though I didn't give it MA... which it will probably have if I'm being honest with myself).
I am feeling the urge to yet again mention how cool it'd be to get any level of Full Auto for the purpose of upping the firepower on this fine piece of HI, but that is a pretty big amount of wishlisting. Also, I doubt they'll get an FO profile. AD troops with FO outside of Ariadna ALMOST completely don't exist ( Meteor Zonds in Nomads still get FO, but that's because they basically are basic Stempler Zonds with Combat Jump. ). Paramedic and AHD Hackers seem to be the more likely norm for AD specialists for everybody else.
There's definitely space for MSV2 on an AD. Over in the PanO section, we wondered about Visor possibilities on the Echo Bravo. I'm hoping that someone ends up with it, just to see the design possibility get fully utilized. I liked that the Dogged notion is resonating though... Psuedo 2-Wound AD isn't new, but pseudo 3-Wound sounds amazing.
And Dogged isn't a new thing for AD troops either. Ragiks in Hassassins/Haqqislam get it, and I'd say it's one of their prime features making them pretty great metal pipes to jam into the wheels of the enemies plans. Also... X-Visor anyone? Since I just now realized that the ability to go suppressive really far up the board and not have to deal with that 16''-24'' -3 rangeband would be pretty cool. v:
For what we know, he might be our Hei Dao (Hac Tao) with AD and mimetism instead of TO. The armor he has does not suggest ARM 3. It's more in ARM 4 (if you look at the shoulders, thighs, chest) or even ARM 5 (same legs as Yan Huo) parameters. My opinion is: If IA will get Tigers, than Tigers will be the "cheap" AD, and Liu Xing will be our Flying Hei Dao.
Honestly, I fail to see a skill like Dogged in any non fanatical troop, and much less in a 2W AD 3 unit for balance reasons. I'm of the opinion the Liu Xing aims for a low 40 s profile with not many "bells and whistles" stuff. AD3 and superjump would make it different enough not to step on Tiger Soldiers. Maybe add MA 1 or an X visor/MSV 1, all that on a Shang Ji like profile and he's good to go. Invincible army is a force that does with HIs the same things other armies do with their usual, more lightly equipped troops. That statement has been on fluff for 12 years now. If the list needs to fit a full combat group composed mostly of HI models then the roster can't be based on many high cost whales. Instead it needs to feature more humble HI units profile wise, but with a good variety of gear options and link possibilities while including different ways to generate order efficiency.
Just popping in to say I can't actually find much in the way of armour signifiers between new simple armour (Zuyong) and new advanced armour (Sun Tze, Hsien). Old Shang-Ji dossier was fairly organic with rounded curves on chest plate, but newer Sun Tze and Hsien went far bulkier and similar to Zuyong. @AdmiralJCJF on repeaters: Yu Jing can't have nice things, either. If they have repeaters or deployable repeaters... that alone would make them extremely different from Tigers
