@TheDiceAbide At least, I see I'm not alone. I fully agree with you about this. Especially since I'm a PanO only player and players of this faction are like their soldiers : they lack will when things are not easy. I can tell you that Montesas are pretty great when it comes to hold terrain like in Quadrant control or Frontline. But since they often need the list to be built around them, PanO players are getting hard time to find how to put them in a list. Don't ask me why, I'm still wondering about it too. And it is the same for Bolts, they are a good Core fireteam. Even with now all the arguments about why we should play them now E/M LGL with X-Visor in FT, Cybermines, Shock, E/M and Viral ammo are everywhere. They give to NCA a good set of orders in case our obvious Lt get isolated and make a good vanguard in case you face the nasty troops and tools our shiny heavy hitters struggle against. But since it implies to go in the midfield, they try to find all the arguments to not play them. The Bolt Hacker is an example of the nastyness this unit can be once you try to think out of the box: E/M Grenades, Boarding shotgun and Hacking device means that he can : - Help our HIs with fairy dust - Exorcise our TAGs - Support our remotes - Impose the same nasty choices that a Ghazi can impose to a HI or TAG (and even some Hackers) : Shoot but I could go for Hacking in case you're a nasty Achille or Hospitaller knight, Dogde because you're in FT and you can't make all your guys shoot at me and I'll probably go for Hacking since it is unopposed, Reset and I'll fry you by E/M Grenades. Of course the Bolt Hacker is well more expensive than a Ghazi but in the same time, he has a lot of things that a Ghazi don't have. And it is just an example of how Bolts like to be. And it is the same for a lot of our units. In vanilla, I rarely can think to not play a FK if I want to play a Heavy Armoured list for Speciaist oriented scenarios. You could find the Teuton boring as hell but he is dirty cheap for a BS14 HI and I see him more as a second/third wave heavy hitter more than anything less. Of course, Eclispe on the EXP CCW profile would make him very different but they are good like they are. I'll surely be discarded here but Infinity is about synergy and not about optimization. A Swiss Guard is often the good call. Will he against Myrmidons? Not so much. But a Aquila Guard will wreck the Greeks in no time. It is the same for any of our unit. If you discard some units too early, then, one player with the good faction with the good tools will think that you wil discard them too and will take what he needs to hard counter you. Discard Bolts and Tunguska or DBS is hard to fight against for NCA. Discard the Holy Sepulchre and your opponent will always know who is who and that if it lacks points on the table, will have a good guess about who it will represent.
I try not to talk about other factions but the only thing that I haven't been able to find a use for in Correg is Carolta, and even she's probably worth the points if Tomcats weren't around. Although Brigada Core is limbo because I haven't bought models since their box was released. I guess I haven't managed to use our AVAs but they're crazy give me a break.
I mean, at worst a Teuton is still a 37 points BS 14 Spitfire, so... can't be TOO bad I suppose. I'd still probably use them simply because they seem pretty cool. That's about as much excuse as I need.
When you actually run the numbers a Swiss is generally better and can hide in marker state (and has a specialist option...). There are actually very few scenarios where an Aquila hand-down beats a Swiss in shooting, e.g. HMG shooting against a Myrmidon fireteam in good range bands it's ~5% better active vs. ~10% worse reactive (being shot at through smoke is one scenario that benefits the Aquila, likewise surrounded by camo markers).
Honestly, the Swiss Guards specialist option seems kinda poor to me, TBH... While yes, it is a marker state specialist, with PanOs lackluster WIP and it being an AHD, it's kinda also inviting enemy KHDs to have a field day with that Swiss Guard. Personally, I'd save the 6 points and 0.5 SWC and drop back down to a regular hackerless MULTI-Rifle and invest those 6 points elsewhere ( Such as upgrading a regular Hexa to a KHD Hexa, or taking a pair of Palbots for docs and engineers. ). I don't wanna sound rude here, but that option seem even poorer to me when you compare the Swiss to it's closest equivalent cousin, another TO HI, the Hac Tao. The Hac Tao gets better WIP and a KHD option. If the Swiss also had a KHD option, I'd say it's a pretty great Camo HI specialist... but honestly, I'd hold off of the Hacker Swiss. But that's just my personal opinion.
I think (and I'm ok) with actually Hac Tao getting better specialist (by quite a big margin) than a Swiss, when a Swiss is a bit more deadlier than Hac Tao (as far as direct confrontations go). IMHO Swiss vs Hac Tao comparison is good example of 2 identical units, which somehow have their own advantages over each other.
The Hac Tao is a big of a bugbear of mine, somehow the +1 BS the Swiss is packing is equivalent to a bump to WIP 14, a CC boost, a nanopulser, kinematica and an upgrade from AP to DA CCW. Now, I know it's because CH:TO double dips with BS making the Swiss pay a lot more for the same skill (it literally seems to pay the upgrade cost twice), but when you look at all the other options the Hac Tao brings...
Honestly, I find a decent amount of YJ and PanO units can be compared in a similar way. Hsiens and Aquilas, for example. And I suppose Orcs and Shang Ji kinda sit in the same boat as the Mobile Brigada and Jannisaires, I hear.
How do you get Teuton to b2b with AC2 ? Or even how do you want to have strike it 3 times without dying ? Hm... actually might work. But remember if you charge you hit on 18s. Also FK FO can both designate antennas and kill them (thought secondary Teuton might actually be usefull).
Such a lie! I'm wondering what you compared. In one hand, you have a unit that fires 4 shots at BS15 against which a Myrmidon can only dodge or shoot to survive and on the other hand you have an other unit that fires 4 shots at BS9 against a Myrmidon that can throw smoke grenades on 16! How can you say that they are both the same? Swiss guard is powerful, yes, I'll never say it's false, but against most of the other factions ARO pieces, he lacks effectiveness because : - he can't see through smoke. - he don't aim much better than an ORC against Camo/TO Camo/Mimetism and ODD for 3/4 more pricier - he isn't good at discovering So yes, he is good but as a first attack piece, I prefer Aquila that can immediately discovers Lunah, Intruders, Ryuken etc. and screw them immediately and will be a pain to remove then for the warband units and camo infiltrators because of his MSV3. He is even better if you happen to play on a jungle terrain! Maybe your opponents don't really know how to fight a Swiss guard but once you know how to counter him, he is not that powerful in active turn.
I assumed eclipse grenades go down, which granted still slightly favours the Aquila thanks to ignoring the ODD, but still wrecks his visor (and no-one throws smoke vs MSV2 unless they're about to hit you with Atalanta), but given the context, the Myrmidons would be on ARO duty and hence wouldn't want to simply absorb one order then create the perfect cover for a Crocman (or a Locust) to waltz up and lay mines all around them, so would actually try and fight the Swiss/Aquila. But sure, while attempting to waste a single order (and no more) and happy to create additional attack vectors in the process, Myrmidons fare better against the Swiss...
Speaking of tossing smoke in reaction. I had this silly little Nomads idea once. Take a sniper Intruder and put a Jaguar right next to him. Whenever an enemy comes into LOF of them, smoke dodge with the Jaguar. Now you get free potshots from your intruder against enemies lacking MSV2+ visors or sizeable spec. fire capabilities! Is a silly idea, I know.
