Sync Civilian - Do you need to be btb or can you touch along a movement path?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by dlfleetw, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Doctor's entry on the wiki states in the first requirement that the user must be in B2B with the target. However, other skills (like CC Attack) say you need to fulfill X requirement to declare the action. So you could declare move + doctor, not touch anything, and then you are doing move + inaction because you failed to fulfill the requirements of the order.

    Granted, it's more relevant when you talk about hacking (move + hack, oh hell I'm out of range/that thing I thought was a HI is in truth a Hafza/etc...) than in this case, but a relevant one is engineer while the engineer is IMM-2 but declares that so the servant can unglue him XD
     
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  2. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Now I'm really confused. Doctor and CC Attack list functionally identical Requirements for base contact, and Requirements have to be fulfilled on Skill declaration anyway.
     
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  3. Todd

    Todd Well-Known Member

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    Where does it say that, I couldn't find anything to that effect, except for the page 31 box.

    The problem with that bit, is it doesn't say when the requirements have to be met. If everything is simultaneous, than why isn't it valid if the model moves into contact at some point. It doesn't help that it's followed by an explanation of what happens when the players finds out a skill's requirements aren't met at resolution.

    Functionally, how is that any different then declaring a skill that requires B2B contact after a model bumps the target and moves away with the first skill? In both cases, the model is not in B2B when the skill is declared, but in B2B at some point in the order.

    Everything is simultaneous, right?
     
  4. Todd

    Todd Well-Known Member

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    To further clarify, page 31 says...

    It says CC cannot be performed, not declared.

    Also, being invalid isn't telling us anything, until we get to the next bit...

    Effectively, you could declare an invalid skill, but it won't matter until resolution. That is, unless the skill itself stipulates that the requirement be met in order to declare it.

    I don't have my books with me, so I can't check, but doesn't CC specifically mention the inability to declare the skill outside of B2B contact in the text section just above the actual skill box? That would make it functionally different from Doctor. Most other skills lack that additional text, and only stipulate the declaration requirement within the Skill box itself. Doctor is one of those that lack the "declaration" wording.

    Edit- Removed the BS Attack reference. Something mentions the declaration requirements outside of the actual skill box, but I'm not sure what without my books.
     
    #24 Todd, Jan 4, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  5. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know...

    That first blurb reads pretty clearly to me that you cannot declare a skill when the requirements have not been met. The second one makes sense when you consider ZoC (and hacking) declarations since you cannot measure until resolution. In this case, and in this case only, you are making skill declarations with incomplete information. If that information turns out to make your declaration null, then so be it.

    As for the text above the actual CC skill, I'm not sure I would count that as something above and beyond what's in the skill box itself. That space is usually reserved for explanation/exposition (basically a "layman's terms" for the skill), not for adding to the skills themselves, right?

    Lastly, remember that simultaneity is on skill resolution, not declaration. There is, very obviously, an order to skill declarations, otherwise you would have every enemy model making an ARO on the off chance that they actually got one (and there would be no need to have a second round of ARO declarations). Movement and templates are explicit exceptions to that in that you must resolve movement/placement as soon as you declare it.
     
  6. Todd

    Todd Well-Known Member

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    But why, if we know there's precedent for checking validity at resolution?

    And regarding the second bit I underlined, who's to say the rest of the model's order isn't incomplete information, that may or may not render the first skill null?

    The problem is that the rules don't actually say we're not allowed to declare invalid skills, but they do tell us what happens if a declaration is invalid, and even tell us the timing of when validity is determined.

    Don't get me wrong, there are lots of minor tweaks that could be made to the statements in that box that would make it clearly read the way you're saying it does. It's so close, but just misses the mark. Change perform to declare, and bam, you're good to go. Except they didn't, and they followed it up with a bunch of skills that also don't say declare, and a bunch of others that very specifically do say it (sometimes in multiple places).

    For good or bad, I think we have to take rules wherever we find them. CB is not good at staying within their own format boundaries. For instance, there are tons of skills that have effects in the supplemental reminder boxes instead of being listed in the actual effects section of the skill box.

    Also, the opposite argument could be made that the skill boxes are just summaries of the more detailed skill declaration rules, in the situations where they're given. Remember, N3 is all about charts, charts, charts. There are lots of cases where the more graphic representations overlap or make the straight up text redundant, and vice-versa.

    This distinction only matters if you take the first bit from the page 31 box to definitively mean requirements are checked immediately, even if they're not specified to be declaration requirements, which just goes back to my first point.

    Also, I agree about their being an order to declarations, because there are so many mechanics that apply a sequence to them. That's not really true about AROs though. The rules state you need LoF in order to declare them, so you couldn't do that (unless you meant ZoC AROs)
     
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