I can reverse the question, and ask what exactly does Pano have thats troublesome for other factions to deal with? The other factions have many ways to counter out best units while we often have but one solution and thats shooting. When it comes to high tech shooting factions, both Aleph and CA are scarier than Pano at this point and are much more well rounded forces. With linked teams they can match or exceed any of the shooting advantage Pano supposedly has. Considering that Panos only strategy in objective based missions is to kill the enemy then grab objectives and hope they don't go into retreat first, yes, Pano is certainly lower tier. I don't think there is any real way to argue otherwise. Some highly skilled players being able to win tournaments with Pano is not the same as Pano dominating the tournament scene. We know the factions that dominate and its the ones with the easiest time garbing objectives and having large order pools.
But shooting is pretty much everyones plan A... When they have to go to plan B then you are doing something right. Are they? Really? Pretty sure that is also my default strategy for all my factions... Oh? So those players who won did it despite PanO and not because of it. Infact if they are really playing to win they should be mastering the higher tier faction.
Right, because everyone is rushing to play Pano because its so great for ITS/tournament play......... Every faction in the game can't be top tier. Some are a little worst than others. Pano is a little worst. Thankfully, Infinity is balanced so that theres not that great a gap between factions.
Didn't MO win the last Interplanetario? And I'm pretty sure PanO's numbers are pretty high in ITS play? If that's wrong correct me.
Yes, there are a lot of Pano players but they didn't all reach the top. The winner was MO but the factions with the most players at the top was not Pano. Are we really arguing whether or not Pano is a strong faction for ITS? really? The factions are not all equally good for ITS. Being second tier doesn't mean Pano is crippled in ITS. Edit: Oh yeah, that was Interplanetario that an MO player won. I believe the Combine Army won ITS. Its why CA got bit and kiss.
Below are players and armies played in interplanetario last year. According to the only source i can find. As you can tell pano is not really abundant in the top . 1. Marduk Military Orders 2. Karolis Nomads 3. Plebian Ariadna 4. Phlyk Steel Phalanx 5. Daixomaku ??? 6. SIRXX Aleph 7. logan Combined Army 8. spears Tohaa 9. Mohoyorko Ariadna 10. dancingpigeon PanOceania 11. odez USAriadna Ranger Force 12. Reyzah Morat Aggression Force 13. Tracamanya ??? 14. Stun25 ??? 15. Demus Aleph 16. Reficul Ariadna 17. Zlakhon Ariadna 18. Gothorum Shock Army of Acontecimento 19. careganto Tohaa 20. Tristan228 Jurisdictional Command of Bakunin 21. Kristoff Qapu Khalqi 22. Alri Tohaa 23. Kaudiyo Combined Army 24. Shas'O Kassad Neoterran Capitaline Army 25. Leirbag Combined Army 26. Fari Caledonian Highlander Army 27. Jorge PanOceania 28. R3b00 YuJing 29. Bredar Ariadna 30. Melmak Caledonian Highlander Army 31. dieldien Combined Army 32. Sir_Fincor Tohaa 33. StonySting Tohaa 34. Usagi Ariadna 35. vettel Combined Army 36. Kelthret Aleph 37. darkdoji Onyx Contact Force 38. Zergash Yujing 39. GrindCore ??? 40. Darkchant Ariadna 41. gammaray Onyx Contact Force 42. Shirloth PanOceania 43. Masterofmelee Shasvastii Expeditionary Force 44. rodrigaor Yujing 45. Seiko Aleph 46. Omadon PanOceania 47. Nebrera Tohaa 48. Quirk Military Orders 49. Perzan Hassassin Bharam 50. Alz Nomads 51. eciu Military Orders 52. ??? ??? 53. Darkness Hassassin Bharam 54. andy-elsabio Shock Army of Acontecimento 55. equaton PanOceania 56. Foxep ??? 57. Lord_Cabaleiro Force de Réponse Rapide Merovingienne 58. jsuso Haqqislam 59. Erebus 2,0 Combined Army 60. Kelzaral Tohaa 61. Thierry Ariadna 62. Inmel Nomads 63. Epsolon921 Tohaa 64. Aatu Morat Aggression Force 65. aphexblue Neoterran Capitaline Army 66. jesus Jurisdictional Command of Corregidor 67. Whelpslayer Neoterran Capitaline Army 68. miki Imperial Service 69. srbarrod Tohaa 70. pedrogzc Steel Phalanx 71. C0MR4DE Jurisdictional Command of Bakunin 72. choponet Ariadna 73. davili Tohaa 74. killAv Neoterran Capitaline Army 75. Blindside Nomads 76. Aquiles Steel Phalanx 77. von_drake Haqqislam 78. DPA Aleph 79. kennyisdead Shasvastii Expeditionary Force 80. HurVo Jurisdictional Command of Corregidor 81. flautaman666 Aleph 82. hqr PanOceania 83. Caelcifer Qapu Khalqi 84. S Y lP lH 3 lR Tohaa 85. Damiel Onyx Contact Force 86. Pendragonstn Tohaa 87. ijw Onyx Contact Force 88. Menglog Japanese Sectorial Army 89. Locke Japanese Sectorial Army 90. Diacono Del Coriandolo Tohaa 91. Bast Jurisdictional Command of Bakunin 92. Urizen Shock Army of Acontecimento 93. Pupnik Nomads 94. Paradur Japanese Sectorial Army 95. Egape Morat Aggression Force 96. Marauder343 ??? 97. garhex ??? 98. WarHound Neoterran Capitaline Army 99. ALJO Yujing 100. Asesinlo Combined Army 101. Nando Haqqislam 102. Dekens Qapu Khalqi 103. Coveredinfish Haqqislam 104. Espartaco ???
You aware that ITS and Interplanetario are 2 different things ? MO won Interplanetary, with 2 almost identical lists (TO vs MSV snipers) on very specific (if not skewed) mission set (hilariously set for TAGs, he played HI link (well only choice for MO)).
That's why I said if I'm wrong correct me as I couldn't recall which exactly it was. Yes I'm aware they're different thanks ;)
Those arent mutually exclusive. Just because pano is just a strong as other factions at its doesnt mean people are rushing to play it. I often take breaks from pano to not get absolutely bored of it
I think this thread is supposed to be about "how to fix PanO". Mostly because some people feel like PanO could offer more than it does, and fix a lot of its profiles, concepts and strategies. It's not about "Is PanO ITS viable?". So stop derailing and let's go back to the previous conversation and ideas which were interesting, please.
Alright, in an attempt to get back on track: Kirpal Singh obviously has some issues, because he is an expensive source of Chain of Command that doesn't even work. Other than fixing the ruling of CoC... In his fluff, it says, "No one in the PanOceanian army knows more than him about jumping behind enemy lines. His name appears in all paratroop training manuals since he revised and modified the design of the tactical jump backpacks and developed new techniques for jumping in extreme conditions." Singh should have Superior Combat Jump at the very least.
@Titus I think it is now canon that a thread about internal balance in PanO will derail to "Is PanO viable". You could even create a law like Godwin's one about this. Of course PanO is ITS viable. The faction has just not a learning curve similar to the other factions. While starting with PanO with other newbies will be easy, the moment their opponents begin to understand their own tricks, a PanO player just don't understand why suddenly his troops stop to perform well. And there begins a long period of bashing. We all have our way to consider how to play PanO but one thing we have a lot is good shooters. And this is that we can have spares with similar efficiency while the other factions can't. We can have so much different good shooters in the same list that it appears to be a too much to the others. Yes, your opponent can have a better shooter than you because of Camo, surprise shot or FT. But once this one goes down, how much has he now? Not that much. Aleph has Achille and the Marut? Well, once they are down, the list won't be that much difficult to crush as they all pay for WIP 14-15 and Nanopulsers. I agree with a lot of you that we could introduce more difference between units buy adjusting their profiles, loadouts and FT possibilities but if you all the time stay to play the same way as Haqq or Nomads by just playing one or two good shooters and then give them enough useless cheap troopers so that you have 16 orders, then there is no surprise.
Really? Discussing PanO's place, its comparative power or lack of is very much of importance when trying to improve profiles, concepts and strategies... or do we just not really care about pesky things like balance? Well yah... I have had PanO on my list as a top tier toolbox. Haq, Tohaa, Ariadna, and PanO. Not in that order. So I am surprised to see them considered lower tier then that. Anyway in a effort to play fantasy wishlist. What about a Auxbot you can assign to some troops that activates a shield and absorbs all hits but is then destroyed? I kid I kid. Still The things PanO is missing is smoke, warbands and a unique PanO only ability set. You can't have cheap warbands because of Jeanna. I guess maybe if they where regular orders already... or better yet just equipment. You can't have smoke because CB hates you... Honestly I don't think a little smoke would be all that bad but then the Intruder and Hsien's value is diminished. You have hackers, you have great bots, you have combat jumping, you have a infiltration game that is maybe not the best but I still see my share of them. I am going to have to go read the full thread and try and figure out what the hell PanO is missing.
New unit idea: Tech Bee Dog Walker A single Tech Bee with the Engineer skill that is G:Synchronized with up to 4 Auxbots of all different "breeds." There's one with a shotgun, one with a smoke launcher, one with an HMG, one with a Marksman Rifle, etc, etc. The catch is that at the start of each turn she has to make a WIP check to see if she can keep them in line. If failed, all Auxbots become Extremely Impetuous, dragging her along with them.
I meant gameplay sex appeal/sexy gameplay. In a faction where we have models that range from the tech bee to the jotum, we have the physical stuff covered no matter what your fetish. Those poor mulebots sure attract a particular kind of client though...
And there's why you come across as tone deaf in this thread. PanO isn't missing anything making it competitive. It's missing thematic elements to make it more interesting as a faction as a whole. As of right now vanilla PanO is the most bland thing in all of Infinity. As I've said before PanO players in here are not saying the faction sucks competitively. It sucks on a thematic level. PanO being lackluster thematically doesn't mean it isn't competitive. On the same hand because PanO is competitive doesn't mean it isn't thematically lackluster.
Our hackers are mediocre, lack repeater coverage, and we have only 1 KHD in all of Pano (hexa). Our AD is mediocre as well, but the nature of AD means it can still be quite effective, and our infiltration game is decent. None of that is really toolboxes. Prime example of a toolbox unit is the Heckler. Not the best shooters but has weapons that disrupt the enemy like the jammer or e-marat. Pano doesn't really have much in regards to toolboxes since almost all our units are focused on shooting. Theres nothing Pano can do that the Combine Army can't do but there sure is a lot in CA that is missing in Pano. I would certainly rate the combine army higher than Pano for ITS missions. Though, again, few people play generic Pano because theres no real advantage over Pano's sectorials.