I mean they won... except they didn't win anything did they even in the fluff? So does that really count as winning?
@Section9 a Ninja's bubble isn't ZoC, it's closer to 4" from the closest point you gain LOF and doesn't work in reactive turn. One of the best ways of dealing with Ninjas of all kinds except the Shikami is to get a sensor within ZoC and then get a BSG close enough to say "screw your TO". Shinobu and Saito you might want MSV2 trooper to do it, but none of the Ninjas have much of an ARO game. Hsien is a Ninjas nightmare - MSV2 witha DTW is something their paltry PH will have problems dodging. Of course. For such a tiny faction as Tohaa, of course.
Lets slow this down for a second. You "calling me out" was actually you making the assertion ninjas are actually "the worst TO skirmishers" followed by defining that as lacking mines or any other skill "that is useful". Other than the latter being incredibly vague and unsubstantiated, the former is a narrow definition of a good skirmisher - particularly when assessing one which is usually combo'd with a skirmisher who does have mines. Does yu jing REALLY need multiple minelayers? is that really what they're lacking? so, I wasn't trying to be snide, you genuinely seem to have a very limited view of midfield units, and a strong preference for mines. It seemed like a lot of your perceived issues with ninja derives from your playstyle preference. and while thats fine and all, I thought we were in a conversation about whether yu jing suck or not, and If the metric is going to be limited by preferences than its all pretty arbitrary isn't it? Why do I think the ninja is a good/near top TO skirmisher.... and thats the first distinction. The ninja is a TO skirmisher. We have guilang for mines. and I'd actually argue if you're looking for mines on a TO skirmisher, you're wasting points. TO+infiltration has two primary benefits different to normal camo (and this is what your paying all those points for) 1. You are often hidden. A hidden specialist coming out in the late game to press buttons is gold in some missions. Also great for surprise hacking attacks. 2. You are -6 to hit, -9 out of marker state. So by that criteria, I'm generally not going to compare the ninja to camo skirmishers. Because the guilang is the comparison there, and we can both agree its pretty good. Who are the competition in this area (I'm going to just use the 4 main modern human factions as an example); The croc man, the taureg and the spektr. All are very similar - combi rifle/BS + mines and options for a hacker or FO. Maybe another tool like Dep. Rep or e/mauler. But often not on your specialist profile. Now with the exception of croc man, most factions aren't taking these units to lay mines - they have better options. They're not taken to gunfight, against hard targets even though the mods are good, a lowly combi rifle isn't a great weapon. They are often taken to be hidden specialists. Ninjas are excellent hidden specialists, and they're the cheapest. Tiiiiick. They don't bring mines, but I think mines on TO is a trap. You give up one of your biggest strengths, to put down a mine. Which in this game of cheap warbands, perimeter weapons and holos, is becoming less of a threat. I also note that in the case of haqq and PanO, these are your main options for skirmishing mines. Where-as yu jing and nomads bring cheaper access to infiltrating mine layers. The main strength of the ninja, and its entirely unique to yu jing is the CC skill. As @Section9 put it quite succinctly. MOST units which are good at shooting and might get in the midfield to bully your DZ, if they happen to be within 1 Mov of a corner, or the ninja is behind them. Are dead. Shes got a 70% chance of wounding a hospitaller knight on round 1, and 62% chance to finish him off round 2. Thats a reasonable close combat unit with 2 wounds, dead in 3 orders. This is a good ability. Combo'd with the guilang who provides all your usual skirmishing tools, its a great ability. You can break a midfield suppression unit from a hidden position. Not only break it, but kill. and TO is a skill that allows you to reach CC, even if it means rounding a corner because the net -12 from MA, TO and surprise attack will prevent suppression fire from all but the best BS units. Now the bandit is good a skirmisher. Maybe even slightly better than the ninja, especially in versatility. But they lack hidden deployment, and cost nearly as much as the cheapest ninjas. Now ninjas can't shoot, and that is a major downside. The 35 point FO version would be great for yu jing. But it makes them far from worst, and depending on what you want your skirmisher to do, the 29 pt killer hacker ninja is an excellent midfield unit, which does exactly what you need it to do, and plugs a gap most other skirmishers cannot do - dislodge tough units.
If a TO camo marker rounds a corner to your unit whats your reaction? delay? 2nd short skill is move to within 1mm. Next order its CC with -12 if you want to shoot. If you discover, its move into CC. A TO unit can easily cover 8-12" against a single target. Thats a simplified threat range. I mean your solution to ninjas is pretty applicable to most 1W skirmishers in the game? A tacbow at 8" isn't any worse than a combi-rifle.
During the Ninja's active turn it's at least 8" because move+move into CC. On one order. Even if it's two orders, that's a 12" threat range for CC. And it's 3" for a dodge ARO (Kinematika L1) into CC. But who is going to get that close? As you said yourself, someone is going to try to put a shotgun at 8" from any TO skirmisher. Granted, a Ninja's threat bubble *is* less during the Ninja's ARO, but who the hell puts any model in Infinity where someone can get at them easily? That's bad player tactics, not a fault of the unit's design. I will assume that the most common Ninja in use (across vanilla, SS, and JSA) is the Killer Hacker (it's definitely the cheapest specialist). So, TacBow, KHD, and DA CCW. An enemy closing to within 8" of a Ninja is looking at a BS14 Dam12 DA attack, if they aren't a hacker (That's almost a multirifle's ARO). If they are a hacker, they're facing a WIP13 Dam16 DT attack from Redrum (at -3 to their WIP). If either one hits, that's 2 wound rolls. But all Camo or TO models are weak in ARO. This is not a 'fault' limited to the Ninja. And as @Alphz notes, your solution to Ninjas is the solution to all 1W skirmishers in general.
That depends on what you expect from your skirmisher. The topic was that Banthafodder didn't think the Ninja messed with the enemy's plans as much as a Skirmisher should, and he's absolutely right in my opinion. The Ninja is a terrible skirmisher because it's barely a skirmisher at all, it's an attack piece. It's lacking everything that makes an opponent's advance get mangled or stop. Fact is, the Ninja barely has any ARO presence at all and hunting Ninjas, while top priority, is fairly easy if you're moderately prepared (which is the weirdest part of Yuan Dun, the over-arching lack of Sensor and sniffers). The Ninja does make for a decent active turn trade piece and it is a fact that an undiscovered Ninja has trade potential that most Skirmishers don't, but... how to put this? A Ninja's spiritual animal is the Hac Tao, not the Guilang. Which is a weird way of putting it. Another way of putting it is comparing Husong with Dakini HMG and falsely asserting that the Dakini can fulfil any role the Husong would because it's a REM with HMG and it's even got Mimetism so it'll do it better. Maybe more to the point is that the Ninja doesn't have a toolbox and that's what people expect from Skirmishers. (Oh, and their low PH when all of their skills depend on PH is just funny) I also find it hilarious that at no point do we ever need to specify that we're talking about the 26/0 or 29/0 version of the Ninja. Kind of says a lot for how useful people find the Combi-armed Ninjas and harkens to one of Banthafodder's other points regarding weapon loadout for the Ninja being in need of a fix. They don't have good loadouts on the 30+ profiles for JSA and those loadouts are even more terrible for Yu Jing. @Section9 Normal skirmishers don't deploy as aggressively, tends to drop mines and obnoxious stuff like repeaters in the way, and all in all are horrible for my Hsien to root out.
A ninja is mostly an attack unit and doesn't tend to be use the same way as other Skirmishers, like a Guilang. Skirmishers are for delaying and disrupting the enemy. The ninja is for destroying units in melee. Whats most bizarre is the complete lack of shotgun on the ninja. If its going to be a unit focus on CC then a shotgun would seeem obvious.
Which was the very first question. I guess we're getting attached to the word skirmisher here. Where I tried to more use the term "midifield unit." more to define what I was meaning. I don't see why the ninja needs to be a good skirmisher (for messing up plans) if we already have a good skirmisher. It'd be nice to have more good skirmishers, but I don't think clamouring for that on a ninja is the solution. In regards to profiles, I think its hard because I think CB value that CC skill highly and don't want to give the ninja too many other useful tools. I think the 35pt combi FO is a perfectly serviceable profile. It adds a slightly better weapon for pushing off other skirmishers without massively increasing the points and risking making the ninja amazing. In yu jing its because the only specialist with a combi still costs 40 points because they still haven't discounted the assualt hacking device for god knows what reason. Why do you need PH? a crit cares not for the damage. And 2 rolls at damage 12 are better than 1 at 13 or 14. You shouldn't be engaging. Please, dont ever try to engage. Could yu jing use some more midfield profiles? Sure. is the army trash given its current access? No. And thats my main peeve. People are launching off into these tirades because their preference isn't to use CC, or they hate taking kaung shi so yu jing suck now. It'd be like playing bakunin and refusing to use riot grrls and moira cause you hate them. Then jumping on the forum and yelling bakunin are a shit sectorial. You might have some valid points are about variety, but its lost in all the vitriol.
Again, all TO skirmishers suck in ARO. You give up your biggest weapon, Surprise Shot/Attack if you reveal in ARO. The least-sucky TO ARO is "surprise ML!", which is limited to Noctifer, Hac Tao, and Swiss Guard, since even without the Surprise Shot mod the opponent is likely at -9 if they aren't at -12 (TO, range, cover). That I agree with, though I usually take a Ninja AHD in my Ghost in the Shell lists as the Major (JSA sucks to try and build GitS lists with, even post-Uprising YJ is better). The Ninja FO isn't bad if you're tight on points and SWC, or if your opponent loves their KHDs. (I consider it a given that you need to take a KHD if you take an AHD). JSA is rather limited on hacking, with Ninjas and Aragoto your only AHDs and KHDs.
I assume that "you" is not directed at me and most of your post is not actually address directly to me, but to whom it concerns? In either case, there are a very large number of points to address and the faction is a mess right now because of the holes it got and the lack of expansion that other factions have got. I agree it's not really worth the time to wail into the night regarding how Uprising was handled, but it's inescapable when talking about the meta of list building and profiles to not touch on the topic because there are holes. I'm also getting the feeling that there's some additional weirdness going on because of the ghost of JSA, as in the faction isn't correctly designed because units have concessions so as not to step on JSA unit toes. And again, most skirmishers also come with deployable repeaters, ap mines, lower costs with longer ranged guns, and so on. The Ninja is an assassin and trying to use it as a Spektr or Guilang is going to fail. (Trying to use it as a Speculo is also going to fail, but let's not rant about Impersonation)
Guilang + Ninja midfield pairing works in a similar way to the Zero + Bandit pairing. With the added bonus that you are less likely to be rooted out and killed turn 1. Kanren AHD + Guilang FO + Guilang Minelayer + Ninja KHD is an extremely solid midfield with solid hacking game that should give 90% of rambos pause. Completely different approach to the Monk+Kuang Shi approach but just as viable in its own way. Ninja / Bandits are good comparisons. LSG, ADDHL is significantly better than Tacbow though. YJ Ninjas being irregular would be interesting...
Did i just readt someone argumenting Ninja is the best TO skirmisher because "he has TO and he is an skirmisher"? People are hilarious sometimes And while i really appreciate the points being made from some of you, @Alphz you can't say Ninjas are the top TO skirmisher and then say they are not skirmishers but it's ok because you can pair them with Guilangs; you are evaluating Ninjas, not Guilangs, we already know Guilangs rock. Some extra profiles would have been all the Ninja needed, but then again that's true for much of YJ at the moment.
Your assumption is that Yuan Dun's philosophy is "search that building for traitors", when it's actually "burn that building to the ground with everyone inside it". Don't really need sensors for that type of work. Rofl, welcome to being wrong. I like how you asked for examples, were given them, then stick your fingers in your ears.
Psycho Crane: Burn the building down! Sophotect: The building is already burnt down. PC: Burn the burnt building down further! S: ... PC: They're shooting at us from somewhere, carpet bomb the entire city! S: If only we knew which ruin they are hiding in... Zhanying: Imma firing ma missail *derp* Seriously, though, I do think that not having more Sensor agents is one of few *thematic* misses (let's not argue about playability, okay?). Only List C has one.
Skirmishers by faction: PanO: Locust (ODD, 1/5 profiles with drop bears, 1/5 with marksman rifle), Croc Man (TO, all profiles have mines, 1/7 profiles have MSR). Yu Jing: Guilang (Camo, all profiles have mines, 1/7 profiles have MSR), Kanren (Holo2, no mines, combirifles or boarding shotguns only), Ninja (TO, no mines, 1/7 profiles have MSR) Ariadna: SAS (Camo, no mines, 1/7 profiles have sniper), Chasseurs (Camo, 3/5 profiles have mines, 1/5 profiles have AP Sniper), Foxtrots (Camo, all but LGL have mines, 1/6 profiles have sniper), Scouts (Camo, 1/6 profiles have EMauler, all others have mines, 4/6 profiles have Ojotniks, 1/6 profile has AP Sniper), Hardcases (Ambush Camo, Tac Bows), Uxia (Camo/Ltd Camo, boarding shotgun, no mines) Haqqislam: Al Hawwa (Camo. Sniper has mines, other profiles have boarding shotgun w/o mines), Farzan (Camo, 1/3 profile with mines, only rifles or boarding shotguns), Fiday (Impersonator), Hunzakut (camo, all profiles have mines, 1/3 profiles have sniper), Al-Djabel (Impersonation), Tuareg (TO Camo, all profiles have mines, 1/5 profiles has sniper) Nomads: Bran do Castro (camo, no mines, rifle or boarding shotgun only), Bandits (camo, 2/7 profiles have mines, 1/7 profiles have emauler, combi or shotguns only), Moran (Mimetism, all profiles have Crazy Koalas, combi or shotguns only), Spektr (TO camo, 4/6 profiles have mines, 1/6 has emauler, 1/6 has MSR), Zero (Camo, 7/8 profiles have mines, other has emauler, 1/8 has MSR) Combined: Malignos (TO camo, 5/7 profiles have mines, 1/7 has monomines, MSR does not have mines), Speculo (Impersonator), Shrouded (camo, 5/6 profiles have mines, MSR does not have mines), Zerat (Mimetism, 5/6 profiles have mines, 1/6 has d-charges, 1/6 has MSR) Aleph: Daysus (TO camo, 4/7 profiles have mines, 1/7 has MSR), Naga (Camo, 4/7 profiles have mines, 1/7 has monomines, MSR does not have mines), Posthuman Mk2 (TO camo, no mines, MSR or shotgun, price issues) Tohaa: Clipsos (TO camo, 3/6 profiles have mines, 1/6 has sniper), Igao (camo, no mines, combi or shotgun only) NA2: Hunzakuts (camo, all profiles have mines, 1/3 profiles have sniper) Ninja (TO, no mines, 1/7 profiles have MSR) Oniwaban (TO camo, no mines, shotgun or SMG only), Shinobu (TO, no mines, combirifle), Saito (TO, no mines, combirifle), Al Hawwa (Camo. Sniper has mines, other profiles have boarding shotgun w/o mines), Bandits (camo, 2/7 profiles have mines, 1/7 profiles have emauler, combi or shotguns only), Hardcases (Ambush Camo, Tac Bows) So, of the TO camo skirmishers, 5/9 (5/11 if you count characters) profiles have mines. Roughly half. I admit that a deployable repeater ninja would be nice, though. So would an E/Mauler, as Ninjas are all about the shenanigans. Of the TO Camo skirmisher Snipers, the Ninja Sniper is 42|1.5, Clipsos is 26|1 (sniper), Daysus is 42|1.5, Malignos is 42|1.5, Spektr is 39|1.5, Tuareg is 33|0.5 (sniper), Croc Man is 38|1.5. The cheapest Multisniper is the Croc Man, who is only 4pts cheaper. (Ignoring the Posthuman, since there's a minimum of an additional 10 points involved with them)
And they're all better at being annoying speedbumbs while the Ninja is better at walking up to someone and stabbing them in the neck. Look, it's like trying to make the point that an ABH makes for a good ISS cheerleader mook because it's got good stats and costs roughly the same as a Celestial Guard. And this is not saying that all of the profiles of the units you listed are worthwhile. There's a lot of duds in that list that just doesn't perform their roles well and just ends up being expensive gun mooks instead of the skirmisher you wanted.
