Order Expenditure Sequence: Forced ARO's & Catch 22's

Ginrie are you just upset that you keep putting troops to close to the edges of buildings and they keep getting jobbed by ZOC-Move orders?

Pull them back, or overlap the lines of fire mate so your troops arent isolated

 

I think that is the point. We do think this element of the game is refined enough as it is and cannot be improved upon. Do I personally think all the possible interactions are perfect? No.

However I find fault of that in the other special rules not the core ARO mechanics. Forcing a choice on the reacting player is a good thing and I don't think that should be tampered with. Having some rules work strangely to accomplish this is something I don't like (loud stomping stealth users for example).

 

Yeah, I'd say we have reached TWO consensus:
- The rule works as intended
- We like the way the rule works

 

Key point of your post regarding your “logic”: “in your opinion”, which is all this thread has been, you presenting your opinion as if it were fact and casting aspersions on anyone who dares disagree. And, yes, this particular area of the game, as has been stated time and again, is functioning 100% as intended by the designers.

 

What is it you are actually trying to accomplish here other then the fun of a argument?
You just want people to agree that some aspects of infinity could hypothetically be better?
I mean sure everything could potentially be better somehow...

Also dodge and reset always have a chance to change the game state.
I mean they let you to an extent dictate the weapon your enemy is going to use also they let you potentially move don't they?

 

Yes, you have avoided backing yourself into a corner quite well - and that's precisely my point. You've dodged and weaved pretty well, and we can't pin down what your actual reasoning is. Is it that you want to the game to be more realistic, or that you want it to function better as an abstraction? You can't always have it both ways, but you've been pretty dead-set that you can just use whichever argument hasn't been used last to justify what you're trying to argue.

And this is the problem. We've called out your logic because it is poor. Going back to the same argument over and over, and refusing to acknowledge the other side's points, when legitimate, is debating in bad faith, and it's rightfully irritating a lot of people here.

I wasn't going to step into this thread, but I deal with the difference between facts and argument on a daily basis in my professional training. You're conflating the two, and your inability to see that is making you and the rest of us talk past each other.

This conversation is, however, hopefully constructive for the readers who haven't participated but might have frustrations with the Dodge/Reset mechanic, or might have been on the fence about the topic. They've been given a lot of coherent and well-argued reasons by multiple posters why the ARO mechanics work the way they do in N3, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

And sure, it's possible that mechanic could still be improved, but more granularity almost certainly isn't the answer.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that the way the system currently works IS a good approximation of reality, whether you want to believe it or not.

Infinity is not a combat simulator, and I don't think it should be. It's already complicated enough. N3 was meant to pull back from the simulation aspect, hence the removal of "realistic" things like not getting an ARO against camo unless you survived the shot. Wooden Ships and Iron Men by Avalon Hill is the best combat simulator I've played. Both players write down what their ships are going to do, then everything is revealed and executed. Sometimes you'll have lines crashing into each other, or one person will miscalculated their opponents intentions and present their stern, all kinds of crazy stuff. I don't think that system would work in Infinity unless the game was capped at 10 models a side and we got rid of the order system completely. But then it's a whole new game.

I don't remember the exact figure off the top of my head, but something like 90% of those enlisted in the US armed forces are non combat arms personnel, so I hope you'll excuse me if I think your reference to the "military family" you married into means dick all compared to my 30 months of real world combat experience as a US Army Infantryman. Without ststing what nation/branch/MOS they are makes it even less meaningful.

 

I keep meaning to write a response, but you guys are doing a much better job of saying the things eloquently (and keeping polite). So keep it up team!

 

No, that doesn't make any sense to me.

CB had a chance to drastically change the game with N3. They did. As noted, they rewrote the entire damn rulebook. They changed the entire game premise from "maximum realism" to "maximum playability".

And yet, in the process of a total re-write, they did not change the fact that you can force someone into Catch-22 ARO or even a Normal Roll. Hell, they made forcing someone into a Normal Roll easier in some cases (say, Assault for a Move+Move+CC attack).

Dude, I've put together 500+ page instruction manuals (ugh), starting from a single signer and having to get three different groups to sign the damn thing. And then I did the revisions to it. Ugh. And a smaller 250pg document, same issues.

You don't change something that is working the way you want it to. You only change the things that are not working the way you want them to.

I get it. You fucking hate the catch-22 ARO, forcing someone into a normal roll.

But sometimes the 'reacting person' just flat misreads the attack. I've done that in martial arts (nothing like having an axe-kick land on your shoulder, good thing the instructor saw I'd misread and pulled it), I've done it in paintball (military training), airsoft (more realistic weapons, less pain than paintball), and even with wax bullets (owowowow!!!). Fortunately it was only in training, or I would be fucking dead right now.

For better or worse, I've never been in combat. If I had been, there would be some glowing glass craters someplace, because I served on a missile submarine. But training? Fucking every day, two or three times a day, and 'only' once on Saturday. Being in port was my easy days, I 'only' worked 12 hour days 5 days a week then.

So I'm going to stop being nice about this.

Either learn how to deal with Catch-22 AROs tactically, like not leaving your dudes exposed asses hanging in the breeze, or quit the game. Because the chances of you changing the Catch-22 ARO, which has been through multiple major rules changes, is a number virtually identical to zero.

TL;DR: Git Gud noob.

 

Hate to be an ass, but... sounds more like flunked D20 rolls.

I mean, in any of these situations, were you ever forced to choose between attempting to hit the deck or do a quick off-and-on on your comms in order to prevent them from being fucked up by your opponent?

Don't lose sight of the actual core issue that Ginrei is reacting to; it's not about a soldier being put in a poor situation, but about a soldier being put in a situation where they have a choice between two vastly different actions and where the attacker is in a position such that they can choose their attack to optimally abuse the choice of the attacked soldier.

Every single analogy I've read so far completely misses the point. Take the goalkeeper example from earlier. The penalty kick is a perfect example of a FTF where the two participants have only a single skill declaration available to them by design. If the goalie rolls over their value, they jump towards the wrong goal post, if they roll lower than the attacker, they jump towards the ball but miss it. Essentially a Dodge versus a BS Attack in the 0-8" +3 range.
The only way I can twist this is if the goal keeper has to choose between Dodging to catch the ball or using Call Out (aka Reset) to try and convince the Judge that the guy about to make the free kick is faking an injury and in that way they're have the judge remove the goalie from the game (aka IMM-2). The crux of the matter is that the guy making the penalty kick has perfect information on the goalie's intentions and can thus choose to film an injury because they know the goalie is going to dodge. It's not about the goalie making the wrong call, it's about the goalie being completely unable to make the right call because the penalty kicker is acting with perfect information.
Biting the grass has never been so rewarding.

 

To be fair the tech used is not something we have to face in the real world.

but lets look at it from a semi realistic approach.
Your doing patrol and you encounter a lone enemy unit, you see him and he looks up and sees you. He starts to draw his weapon on you and so you let lose a few bursts at him Standard face to face right?
If he instead bolted for the closest wall I might still just shoot at him but I could see grabbing my jammer and sweeping the wall as he ran.
I think that looks kinda realistic. Definitely more so then whatever an evade action might look like that also protects you from infowar attacks.

 

Then let me fire this one back at you, a Jammer doesn't present the soldier with a life-or-death situation, getting Isolated isn't the same as getting killed and Infinity isn't far enough into the future that Cubes have made us evolve the instinctive fear of death away.
Is that soldier dodging for the wall because he's trying to get cover and avoid dying, knowing that it'll probably mean getting cut off from command? Hell, there's an argument to be made for which weapon I'm holding. If it's an assault rifle, it's going to take me several seconds to get the Jammer in hand ready to fire, so why doesn't the soldier see what I've got prepared to use?

The problem with Reset as an ARO is that it isn't intuitive. Especially, it's not intuitive in the sense that these situations won't happen unless we're talking about ZOC ARO with no LOF. Again, I'm not arguing for the position that Ginrei held in the OP, but I am saying that it is not at all outlandish nor very harmful to the game to easy up a bit on these supposed Catch-22s.

Arnold hears a snap behind him. Our hero tenses, ready to react at the slightest hint at what's happening behind him. Is it going to be targeting system gaining a lock on Arnie or is there going to be a net slicing him to shishkebab? Only the Predator knows, because he'll pick the attack that Arnie isn't preparing for. How disappointing, it turns out that hunting humans is barely any harder than shooting stationary targets, the Predator thinks as he adds Arnie's head to his belt.

(I mean, using cards to declare skills in this situation isn't an outlandish idea, either. I'll declare ARO by picking a skill card and then you pick a skill card to reveal your second skill and we reveal at the same time. That's going to change the dynamics of the active turn significantly, however, so I'm not proposing it more than as an idea to toy with)

 

I am not really sure what the question is. I do know that standing there and fiddling with your radio is probably the wrong ARO in real life and in game.

Good question. Maybe he did not have time to see or maybe you commit to a secondary weapon after he has committed. I mean you can get a pistol out pretty damn fast and in my example with the target running to cover you know you have the time to ready jammer assuming you kept your wits. I probably still would have just shot with the rifle in real life lol.

Sorry could you elaborate? I am not really sure what you mean.

Didn't that sort of play out exactly as it should? It sounds like the Predator has him right where he wants him.
I think a better example might honestly be another hacker hearing that noise (Corner trick) and having to decide to spin around (Change facing) or launch counter intrusion software. I think however that can still be fluffed away.

That is one way to do it but it kinda just a guessing game now? Its not an awful idea or anything and one of my favorite RPG's has you do that, but I don't really think it is a good fit for infinity.
I mean why can't the Predator quickly launch his net if Arnold runs? Hell we saw Arnold earlier in the movie opt to throw a knife at a guy as opposed to shoot pretty much on the fly.

 

While this is a neat idea, pre-selecting skill cards and flipping, you're still taking a lot of power out of the active turn player's hands. imo, that is the initial intent with these catch-22s.

As far as trying to relate these game situations to real life – I always picture that the patrolling soldier (reactive trooper) sees an enemy's head poke out from a window or a corner. realizing he only has a fraction of second to react he must choose to raise his gun and fire, dive for cover, ect. ect. he is unsure exactly what equipment the enemy has readied and must make a best guess before the opposing trooper turns/ pops out fully.

 

Instead of trying to add more layers of complexity by making new skills or convoluted, all purpose AROs, just make Sixth Sense Lvl1 more available.

Spread it around to all the sectorials. Maybe drop the price?

 

@Andre82 I can't elaborate too much because I don't know what catch-22s are sacred. I think it's important that a reactive soldier can be forced into bad AROs, but I don't think it is a good situation if you can set up a situation where the best you can do is choose which attack you take normal rolls against. Just like it is a split second decision for the reactive trooper, it is a split second decision for the active trooper.

Basically, what I suggested was that Arnold instead of picking between which attack he'd not be able to react to, would simpky be able to go "I'm opting for the game's worst ARO skills, but at least I'll get an opposed roll"
Or in the case of the trooper surprised by a patroll, he'll hit the deck if I lift the flamethrower or start mashing his radio's power button if it starts screaming in pain. Neither are good responses, and I'm sure he'd rather dodge for cover against the flamer or try and shoot me if I jammed him, but with opting for an... er... evade delay... he'll be left exposed but more likely to be unaffected. For now.
(It's mostly a nerf to very limited amount of single models like muttas, hecklers and back-attacking hackers, situations where a Hacker makes use of a mine to force normal rolls won't be affected much and I'd argue that the choice also means the player skill level involved with picking AROs increases since this evade has good potential to be a noob-trap if it is considered "safe")

@MikeTheScrivener hence the parenthesis and disclaimer. You'd have to redesign the system bottom up, or at least re-evaluate a looot of things.

 

Oh god no! That skill is stupidly powerful! It's no-restrictions delay is a big deal. I am dead serious when I write that I think it's way too common because of fireteams.
Better idea would be to make Veteran very common so that Jammers and Oblivion have fewer targets or lower effect (respectively)

 

That's a simple solution that still works within the current rules framework. I don't think there's a problem we need to be trying to solve though.

 

Sure but under the same logic why do active players get full bursts and reactive players only a single burst?

Ok but why would Arnold even deserve it?
I mean if the predator was just a little farther back Arnolds not getting a ARO at all in your example.

Yes I am sure it would also be happy with turning on his forcefield that makes him immune to everything but that is not an option.
However in that same line of thought why should he be able to evade delay?
If I am lifting my flamethrower he is not going to instead wait and watch me. The issue is if he dodges this gives me plenty of time even in real life to adjust my action and do something else.

I feel a delayed or generic all purpose defensive ARO is not really adding anything positive to the game. From a gameplay standpoint or a realism standpoint. The closest annoyance I have is the corner trick as that requires some creativity to try and explain.
However that is just my opinion and who knows maybe yours is better.