I'm sure we've all seen the profile: Which is a nice profile indeed, and something most of us wanted in ALEPH (although S4 still burns me a bit, but oh well). However, upon reflection and comparison to some other things, say: The more I look at it, the worse it looks. Lets start with what is same: PH10, ARM4, BTS6, STR2, G:Rem Presence, all well. Both essentially vulnerable to same set of Hacking Programs. All fine. Being a REM does have some advantages: upgrade programs. However, so does being a HI: no penalty to Dodge (admittedly at 10, but still better than 7), able to go Prone. S4 is also a disadvantage versus S2. I pack it in with MOV advantage of Rudras and okay, let's call all that equal.* *Note: I actually think advantage still lies with Hollow Men, but being generous. So the rest: Rudras: + Repeater + Climbing Plus + Mine Dispenser + Electric Pulse Hollow Men: * +1 BS (big one, 12>13) * +1 WIP * Religious (pure, if minor, advantage due to Courage from G:RP) * Super-Jump * Pitcher * Chain Colt * Breaker Pistol, Knife * 4 points cheaper Eh.
Hopefully apsaras will make it a killing unstopable machine! Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 4 mediante Tapatalk
Looks fine to me. S4, no prone, and -3 to dodge is not equal to losing MOV and Upgrades. Especially not in favor of the Hollow. You are way undervaluing those two advantages. I suspect you are undervaluing the advantage of easily dropping White Noise thru your repeater and the incredible Mine Dispenser. I don't even think that Hollow profile will be seeing much unlinked use, but I bet the Gunbot will.
Well, running the stats through my spreadsheet, the Rudras is ~43 points before discounts while the Hollowmen are ~45 points before discounts. The fact the Rudras can be targeted by supportware and carries it's own repeater is probably pushing down or negating the REM discount quite substantially while, for whatever reason, the Hollowmen seem to get a massive discount from Religious. When you compare the Rudras to a Tysklon, it pays 8 points and gains 1 structure while losing 360 visor, x-visor and 1 SWC (assume spitfire+pitcher is the same points cost as a Multirifle+mine launcher), which seems perfectly fine. Hollowmen are just benefitting a lot from a discount we can't pin down.
To be truthful, the Hollow Men can just fire a pitcher and let their Interventors place White Noise, and do not depend on a mine dispenser to use a template weapon. Personally, I'd say that the Apsara with her Jumper LZ will make or break the Rudra, and we shal see if the Rudra won't end mounted as a total reaction bot or somesuch (with a change of base), since the Beyond Cold Front for Aleph is atm all about the Yadu officer Shakti. And no, I don't think "having the uber Yadu troops means having to suck up some useless troops", since that leads to "ok, I simply won't deploy the useless troops". Like the Andromeda situation (her inclusion in the expansion to 300 pts of the Colfront + Beyond is a cheap shot against new players, frankly, and in the long run I believe can hurt the game, but each one has it's own marketing theories). This one I cannot understand, since Religious Troop gives only advantages when paired with Courage, and giging it to a troop that cares nothing about it is meh.
She's included as an exact replacement for Dart for everyone who buys the box after the pre-order period and can't get the figure any more.
Pitcher adds an order (including failure rate of 20%) and limited ammo to putting down the WNoise. Mine Dispenser is equivalent to a Chain Colt? Does anyone really need me to explain how that's not true?
There seems to be a stat-linked tipping point on Religious, for some troops it costs, but for others it provides a discount. It might even be a combination of stats and skills. Mines cost 1 point, I just added another for Mine dispenser for a total of 2 since we have so little data on it.
REM with good armor and multi weapon is scary, especially since it's also a repeater, meaning it can be affected by overclock from our EVO. In active, you have a pseudo BS15 AP+shock weapon, in reactive, it means either B2 DA ARO or B1 DA ARO ignoring cover. With arm 7 in cover and 5 wounds to remove it totally. I think that remote is fine in a remote heavy list, especially if supported by an EVO - we can think of a rudras covered by a lamedh (cheap mimetic B2 flash pulse)
But is much freer in location than repeater centred on yourself. Also, Supportware uses an Order. Furtermore, you are far underestimating the disadvantages of S4 - the move advantage is more than covered by fact you need more than an inch extra just to round the corner - even ignoring the fact that it makes you much more likely to collect AROs. Not what they said. Their point was that Hollow Men have a template weapon, while Rudras need to deploy a mine.
The Rudras is also consistent with a Bulleteer's costs (when you add the extra costs for the weapon, ARM, BTS, S and C+ then subtract ODD and WIP you get ~39 points), and unless you're going to try and claim that the Bulleteer is anything but godly, all you've done is identify that Hollowmen are more heavily discounted than you think they should be.
My comment in that post was strictly on loricus's comments. As for overall pricing, you may be correct that it is Hollow Men who are too cheap instead of Rudras being too expensive per formula. Although I consider MULTI Rifle and medium ARM as overpriced anyway, so it might be why I see Rudras as the ones being at fault.
Just give it some play time. The S sucks but both of these troops are in factions with TO, you don't need to take them to sneak by AROs. You've identified that they are not replacements but have different uses and agree with me that you can't use them as a "Hollow can basically do that too" excuse. Is that what you're saying?
Oh, I agree. I think 11 points for AP/Shock and B1 DA/Stun is overkill when you look at what an SMG costs (and who shoots a MR at >32 inches anyway?)
*sigh* I've played with plenty of S4, it's the worst Silhoutte size by far (bar S8, haven't played Maghariba so can't comment). Furthermore, no amount of TO on other models in the list will help me if I want to move the S4 model that doesn't have TO. I was not commenting on the wider issue, merely pointing out that you have incorrectly referenced the other persons text as equating two abilities which they were not doing in the original text.
I don't see an issue here. From what we're seeing so far OSS Remote/hacking game will be monstrous. Rudra will rarely run without Supportware + whatever support Apsara can give, which should make it much more efficient than the HM. S4 really isn't that bad, my PanO combat remotes see action all the time.
S4 is a problem when you want to move while avoiding ARO, especially for some specialist wanting to do some objective. That's why i dislike it on Andromeda. On a battle REM, i think it's less a problem, even if S2 would still be better. And given said battle REM has climbing plus, it mitigates the problem a bit.
If he didn't compare Pitcher to repeater, and didn't compare Colt to MineD as a template delivery system, then he was randomly mentioning equipment like he has tourettes. I feel like I'm constantly having a conversation where I reply to something, and people pretend I misunderstood the original statement step by step until the only conclusion I can draw is that the original statement was a word salad and it was impossible to make a coherent response. I gave two major advantages on the Gunbot. Two pieces of similar but different equipment on the Hollow were stated as replacements for that equipment. I felt that they did not sufficiently replace them, and that even suggesting one of the examples was a replacement was unreasonable. That is a completely normal discussion/argument. Stop caring more about the conflict than actually understanding, communicating, or coming to a mutual disagreement.
I think we're seeing too much of a paper comparison here. Both troops are good. Both share elements and have differences. Part of being a good player is maximising the unit qualities and turning them into advantages. Yes the Rudra cannot go prone, but it can pin down with mines and it can get enhanced by programs. Yes the Hollow Man has to spend an order to activate the Pitcher rather than having a Repeater always going, but it can put the Pitcher at range and deliver it to a key location. Both are good for their cost, like most things. Neither is better on paper, making a micro-comparison is counterproductive. Instead look to say, how can I make this work? As a community we are too obsessed with minutiae and formulas. Let's get back to tactics and opportunities.
