The only known sectorials (and I'm talking since the original Human Sphere dropped) were White Banner and Invincible Army. Originally, everyone was going to have 4, with PanO having 5. YJ was going to have the Imperial Service, JSA, WB, and IA. PanO was Acontecimento, Svalarheima, Neoterra, Varuna, and MO for the 5th. So hell if I know what CB has in mind! Swiss Guard and Hac Tao would like to be your friends on Mayabook.
@Section9 Yeah I had meant to say "cheap" in there. I'm well fond of the hac tao, but shes only for special occasions. For anyone interested in the actual discussion, best not to read further Spoiler Statements based on speculation. How useful. Next you'l be judging Yu jings list power based on the fact you expect every faction to have access to "insert whatever suits the narrative here". Please do highlight something that every other vanilla faction can do to hard punish a rambo that yu jing doesn't. I don't remember vanilla factions having linked Missile launchers... if I missed that update, then yu jing really is left behind. What does PanO do to hard punish rambos? They seem to have conveniently not included any of the tools you've listed so far. But don't seem to be a WFTgarbage faction. Unless you think they are, and at that point I think you're just trolling. Right now you're excuse of not listing "basic concepts" sounds more like bullshit for "I can't be bothered justifying my weak opinions." The logic here barely stands up to a sideways glance, let alone any scrutiny. So yu jing suck because the rambo kills all their important pieces. But, Again, does EVERY other vanilla faction has something that stops rambos from running in and killing all the important models that somehow yu jing lacks? I'm at a loss to find many given we've just proven a TO sniper doesn't even come close. Ninjas still do surprise stabbing pretty well, so its not like the threat is completely gone either. My hyperbole scale is just about to blow. Except you haven't proven this at all. I mean, I was trying to start a conversation about how to build a list before you came in to seagull. maybe if you waited you might learn some other opinions on how to build lists that don't rely on the same things. or you know, you could decide you're the god of list building and if you can't build a decent yu jing list than they must be trash. That could be true too maybe... The fact you haven't even slowed in throwing your bile to consider the tactical options of two powerful ARO pieces continues to astound. Do, do you think you could put them in different places, effectively countering your opponents attempts to circumvent them? Tactics. Do you maybe think that mission type will play a crucial role in list building and bringing an ARO heavy list to a quadrant game (with any army) is a stupid move, and pretty much entirely independent of faction. But they are an option, and based on your description of super rambos ramming into your DZ - a pretty effective one. Spare me. If you think yu jing is so crap, thats fine. But coming into a discussion about what might be good or working for people and shitting all over it is just narcissistic crying for a pity party.
Sinking 1/4 of one's Army point into a ARO turret risks too much. Apart from its performance or stats, CA Noctifer fits the roll with unmatched efficiency - dang cheap for a ML TO.
High risk, high reward. the noctifier is 10% more likely to flub its roll. Which on a single dice could be crucial if the aim is to nail something nasty on the reveal or the follow up shot. As an area control unit you're totally right. a cheaper sniper or the noc do the same job for less.
My recent fielding of turret Hac Tao was on Show of Force mission and a Firefight with Tohaa. Former blew off a TAG, Latter strolled Tohaa enough to make way for my counter attacks. Tao's a marvel piece. Really. But whenever I field them Im feeling like Gambling with hefty fortunes.
If a TAG popped into LOF of a skirmisher with an emauler/mono mine, you bet your but I would consider ARO drop deployable in their path. Yes, madtraps are a great way to stumble Rambo pieces, but fielding them outside Xi comes at a significant cost. Pheasant is expensive and really shouldn't be anywhere near where they are useful outside of self defense. Zhanying is likewise expensive, but gives up specialist. A toolbox unit, but one that hits you at 28 points for a single wound trooper. The Kanren is one step away from greatness. Able to start in a position to make the madtraps count with the gear to exploit. Except only on a single profile which means not on a specialist AND you give up any holo 1 shenanigans unless you are imitating one of the above. A good piece. Just remember if the Rambo has stealth you need LOF, which is risky. Repeater coverage isn't as hot as other factions. As long as you brought sensor with a multi/breaker rifle. Otherwise that's spending resources poorly in general. I want my skirmisher to throw a monkey wrench in my oppoents plans up the field, you know skirmish. The reason why ninja are low on the totem pole is because of they are incapable of projecting any sort of presence outside of LOF unless you go hacker. The primary reason is because these supposed saboteurs and ambush specialists don't bring along one of the most useful parts of a skirmisher kits, mines. You know deployable equipment which counter CH marker states and visual mods? That allow you to lock down multiple corridors of terrain at one time? There are fewer more efficient pieces of gear than the humble mine. Ninja give up that versatility for a stupidly singular focus on one of the least order efficients of tools, melee, which coincidentally gets shut down by mines. At PH 12. So not only do they give up the versatility of other skirmishers (whom they tend to be more expensive), they don't even have the decency to hit as hard as a combi. Even if other skirmishers don't being mines, usually they make up for it in other ways that are generally more useful than trying to stab someone. You do know most vanilla factions can do combined arms to right? And their variety is only getting better because they didn't have to deal with CB knee capping them. Those Tauregs can be supported by Ghazi and/or number of Haqs great irregular troops? The Posthuman will have at the very least, it's other body.
I feel like if you guys spent about half as much effort as you do trying to theory out how yu Jing is weak, you might actually figure out some decent combos which are left. Im not even sure what youre trying to prove? That yu Jing is trash? You haven't really done that. Throwing out half baked situations with barely defined parameters of what exactly is so wrong isn't going to do it. Would you like some tips on how to use skirmishers outside of your narrowly defined parameters of what makes a good skirmisher?
I decided to try write a list that didn't have kuang Shi and used zhanying. I was well impressed! Yu Jing──────────────────────────────────────────────────GROUP 1 9 1 KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Submachine Guns, Chest Mine / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 17) GŬILÁNG Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31) ZHÀNYING (Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades, MadTraps / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 28) KǍNRÈN Minelayer Boarding Shotgun, Chain-colt, Sniffer / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 27) HAC TAO (Executive Order) HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 69) SÙ-JIÀN Spitfire, Light Flamethrower, Panzerfaust / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 59) WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) ZHANSHI Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)GROUP 2 1 1 1 SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) MAJOR LUNAH Viral Sniper / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29) 6 SWC | 300 PointsOpen in Infinity Army Few tweaks could be made here and there and I'm not in love with putting lunah in. Most of your force is upfield and hidden and the obvious lt is actually just a trap for your opponent to waste orders on. Kanren and chaiyi can drop sniffers and then battle cat can use climbing plus to go eat all of your opponents forward units. Then just go prone on a roof to lol at any counter attack attempts.
@Alphz I think that Shaolin is over all a liability rather than an asset. For the most part what it'll do is open you up to CT order denial, and the smoke it offers isn't integral to any of the units. I'm also not sure 3 Sniffer planters is very useful with the Kanren deploying a sniffer nearly on top of primary TO camo hiding spots without spending orders on it. Unfortunately, "fixing" these "problems" doesn't exactly yield much in the way of a budget, so I dunno. As a small side note, I always thought that what the Hac Tao really needs is a very high WIP LT profile that doesn't have Strategos. You know, something on the cheap side (Zhanying level points) whose main purpose in life is to have their 15+ WIP leadership usurped by the Hac Tao's Executive Order.
Thanks for the offer but no. I'm having fun right now with building Ikari. That at the giving link teams and a figure to Merovingia who were were put on hiatus for the foreseeable future! I don't think they are garbage, but not great either. I agree that they were especially not needed for ISS as well. Maybe I’m not reading it correctly but I don’t see Yu Jing as winning Kurage Crisis. It looks like they got 4th. Behind, Ariadna, NA-2, Pan-O. And it almost looks like a near tie between NA-2 and Pan-O. Also, doing a look at some of the YJ battles, all that I saw were either ISS or the closed lists. Not a single Vanilla. I didn't look at all of them to be honest and I only bothered with the ones that were won.
We are still waiting for the point deductions. Both Pano and na2 had a few suspect reports and probably so did we. It's to close to call, well see at gencon.
The way it looks like atm: Pan-O are the campaign's clear loser, tbh. They should get slapped with the big Disappoint, Son stick like Yu Jing was in previous campaign. They lost their base to Ariadna and claimed none in turn. Tohaa is absolutely the big winners (again, tbh).
Ariadna is in the same boat, and by a far greater margin, to be honest. A few reports here and there could swing PanO’s base back, while the margin is so great against Ariadna that only massive dishonesty on the part of Tohaa will swing Lafayette back.
Fair point. Gah, @-V- really needs to fix the Army Mobile glitch that keeps doing this to lists... Pardon my editing this into a more readable format. Yeah, if you're willing to include Imperial Service units you can still make a pretty mean list. But that's the problem. Making a good list in vanilla YJ means taking SS War Criminals. And fuck that noise!
I am not denying YJ vanilla is functional. But it is worse than it was and is getting left behind. Much of the current weakness is not new (mediocre ARO, CC tax line troops, weakness in the 15-25 range). They just could be papered over by JSA. Whoa, so I call you out on your assertion that the Ninja is a best in class grade skirmisher and this snide insinuation is all you've got? I state I expect skirmishers to muck up my opponents plans (how narrow is that?) I point out the Ninja lacks in board presence. I point out many skirmishers excel at board presence just by having mines. And that those that don't often bring utility to the table. The ninja just brings a sword. I point out the Ninja only have PH 12, which not only determines their melee damage, it affects their dodge/engage and their infiltration past the halfway line. Not even hyper dynamics to bump this up. So somehow it's my view of skirmishers that's narrow and not the profile. Fine. I'll bite. Enlighten me how the Ninja is a top in class skirmisher. Explain to me how it outclassed, for example, the Bandit.
The Ninja's CC stats means that it has a ZOC-sized bubble of "come here and die" once it reveals from HD. It's not as big a range as a mine (large template is 10.5" long), but it's longer-lasting since you never run out of CC score and you do run out of mines. Also, every profile carries this CC threat, while not every SK profile carries mines. Heck, only one Bandit profile does (well, 2 if you include the E/Mauler).
Sure, in the overall points. But only Yu Jing successfully captured a territory and lost none of their own. That was the first criteria for victory in the past. Overall points were just a tiebreaker.
I'm sorry, are you just ignoring that your belief that Haqq are the only faction with Jammers is incorrect? Pan-O has access to lots of cheap disposable flash pulses, and Aux Bots as disposable order soakers. They also have some of the more powerful ARO snipers including multiple TO options for placement. Going further on from trying to rambo into Vanilla Pan-O they have a wealth of potential hidden TO options that can jump up out of nowhere and trash rambo model(s) with special weapons and Boarding Shotguns on the counter attack. It's not a 1 hit like a Kitsune but they'll drop most enemies given a couple of orders, and they don't have to spend as many closing the gap. Once again I reiterate if CB had taken the time to buff our frigging Ninja profiles so they had access to weapons like Boarding Shotguns or E/M CCW and could behave like Croc Men we wouldn't be having this discussion because YJ would have retained their ability to properly dissuade a rambo piece from going hard on turn 1 by threatening with hidden skirmishers. CA has their cheap TO missiles, you know and their remotes are just better than everyone else's Haqqislam. Have you ever even looked at a Ghazi? You can't rambo a Vanilla player. Ariadna are largely immune to alpha striking as a core concept. They have ablative wounds built into their lists by cost reduction, and high marker presence slows players down trying to get past them. You can't just walk past or hang around a bunch of camo markers and expect them not to have a boarding shotgun in there somewhere. Your average Foxtrot spam can grind a rambo to a halt in midfield just forcing him to stop and waste time engaging with a bunch of flash pulsing camo markers. It's also pretty disengenous to try and argue that a faction is susceptible to being alpha struck when they're fully capable of just handing in a practically blank courtesy list. Nomads have everything from strong E/M access, warbands, to jammers, to neurocinetics, to large quantities of adhesive. Not to mention running at nomads with your average expensive rambo is asking to get its brains hacked out trying to move up the table. Aleph has Post Humans, and some of the best stat carrying ARO turrets like Atalanta. I happen to think Aleph is after YJ the most susceptible faction to a bad round of Ramboing partially due to a lack of model options, but they're getting a whole swathe of new stuff shortly so that's not particularly a factor anymore. Once again you're trying to misrepresent and twist the argument to hold some CB worshipping high ground that they did nothing wrong. The point is Yu Jing sucks because the rambo kills all their important pieces, unless they spam cheap ablative bodies. And there's your problem. When playing against a vanilla list they're far more predictable than other factions which both makes them boring and easier to deal with when you have greater insight into how they operate, and if they don't adhere to a narrow margin of list construction you know that they're extremely weak to getting bum rushed by a rambo. Ah, so you are from Psychoticstorm's camp of "The Ninja is an adequate replacement for an Oniwaban" That does explain why you don't actually know what you're talking about. Some people also tried to start a conversation about how good the Yuan Dun CBLs were. I appreciated they wanted to start the conversation, didn't fix the part where they were absolutely wrong though. Again, missing the point entirely. You should put some terrain on the table if you think this is actually a viable option. Let's be real here, the assumption was nobody's playing Annihilation. I like how you're trying to argue a gimmick list is viable, surprise, it's not a really great idea to place your eggs in one basket like that and hope your opponent trips your trap card on a regular basis, and that your ML hits all the time before the jig is up. Look I'm sorry that you're wrong. I appreciate you like your quirky lists but it doesn't fix the part where they're not actually any good. Like I said I like to build quirky lists and playing them, but I will fully point out that they're garbage.
