I too find it hard sometimes to make a vanilla list and i feel with you about the uprising but in my opinion the different between criticism and whining is the quantity. The entire Forum knows already in all its flavors that we are upset about how the uprising was handeled just like everyone knows that Bolts are overpriced, Tohaa is in need of an Sakiel box and Muttawiah must be nerved... its a bit tiresome to hear the same every day. I dont say that you can't be upset, you should and say it loud if you think CB does something stupid but after you made your statement: don't be a pain in the neck and say it on every occasion possible. I'm sorry if i insulted you, english is not my first language so it could be that my words are more harsh that they ment to be. If you want to discuss this further with me, just let us do it via private messages and you will hear all my complains about the uprising :D
Sorry, i didn't adress you, i was writing to space ranger and forgot to quote. I apologise if i offendet you because im not a boss from anyone except from myself... and my tin soldiers :D
No insult taken. What’s insulting is trying to play with a force you feel was intentionally hurt. Playing what amounts to a sectoral with none of the sectoral rules and advantages is insulting. Saying YJ is F****d and implying to get over it and like it anyway is insulting.
Do you need some help building yu Jing lists?? I'm still loving playing yu Jing. Maybe we can help make it less sucky until some new releases drop.
I feel like Vanilla Yu Jing is a bit like Military Orders right now. It's not weak, just very narrow. But hopefully the Yu Jing success in Kurage will be well recognised, supported by CB, and go some way to improve the feelings of Yu Jing players
I'm still amazed that the "reinforcements" that Yu Jing were promised for the campaign were the ISS (untouched by Uprising btw) closed battle lists.
Minus the link team options. I wouldn't mind so much about narrow but it goddamn grates when I'm being forced into a narrow selection of lists when my advantage is supposed to be list diversity, and I'm trading that for tangible stat buffs. Really puts a curb on the strength of the army. I don't wanna play 8 warband models all the time but you're gimping yourself badly if you don't, everytime I don't put that body spam down to soak up hits I get crap like an Uhlan ramboing in my backlines because he's not scared of anything and there aren't any AROs worth a shit able to keep him out.
One of my big questions is "what other Sectorials is Yu Jing getting"? Because there should be something beyond Invincible Army and White Banner. Perhaps that would be a good reward for winning the campaign, a little hint of the unknown future.
I mean what? There isn't a lot of AROs out there that a Uhlan (or any TAG with mods) particularly cares for. Once its there though, yu jing isn't really much more limited in dealing with it though? infact, a double team with a kuang shi and shaolin is probably about the cheapest way to eliminate a TAG that any faction could ever dream of. Yu Jing still boasts one of the most diverse rosters of heavy infantry in the game. Crane, Hac Tao, Hsien, Zuyong, Yan Huo, daofei are 6 different profiles bringing very different and useful tools to the battlefield. 5 of them can be your Lt (sometimes with +SWC). I'm not saying we lost some flexibility, but holy shit people. My typical list building now combos 2 elite HI off with eachother - Yanhuo + hactao/daofei or Hsien + just about anything and smoke. No matter what your opponent puts down, you've got some of the best tools to remove it. If it has TO, then a Hsien will kill it. If it has MSV or relies on armour/wounds and BS 14 HRMC is your answer (it takes less than 3 rounds of shooting to destroy a Jotum). Guilang and ninjas are still good skirmishers. In fact, still some of the best in class skirmishers out there. Kanren brings some interesting, if situational tools. If you really want to play an aro game, try this: take lunah and a hac tao missle launcher. Deploy them close together, the missile in hidden. Normally I'll combo this with a rui shi/su jian to counter attack. Don't reveal either when your opponent is moving chaff about. But as soon as they bring out something decent, just unleash. Splitting burst against either target is not a great option. The first time I pulled it out, caught a bunch of a heavy infantry link under the template as they weren't expecting templates (no raidens anymore right) and they all died, game pretty much over.
Besides decent TO sniper options, Jammers, cheap TO missile options like CA has our threat before was we didn't threaten the TAG with AROs, vanilla YJ threatened the TAG with the ultimate stabby ninjas of doom. If you shoved hard against Vanilla turn 1 you basically opened yourself up to the risk of a Kitsune cutting it in half in return, so people usually didn't rambo the shit out of you on turn 1 with their TAG/Kriza/Sujian or whatever, because they ran the risk of immediately losing their power piece in return. We don't have that threat anymore so diving hard into your opponent's face doesn't come with the same counter threat if they're not running alot of orders. If you go hard and kill 5 guys out of a 12 order list, there's a good chance based on position they're not gonna be able to get back at your rambo piece with what's left (which probably isn't anywhere near the rambo piece) and the fact that they're down hard on orders. Being forced to always bring these warband models is the problem. Fantastic. It doesn't solve the part of the problem where you are basically always pairing them for optimal play with a Celestial Guard, 4 Kuang Shi, 4 Monks, an Engineer, and a TR bot because we don't have access to other decent ARO options. That's an entire Combat Group worth of models that you're stuffing into an army before you think about what you're doing. What sort of mission you're playing doesn't even come into account because these are required so badly now. It's like playing Vanilla Haq, except instead of going "better put these 4 Ghazi in" you're going "well shit better bring this ENTIRE COMBAT GROUP of dudes." Yeah that's a trick I'd pull once or twice, it's not viable on a regular basis because you're dumping about a 3rd of your army and more than half your SWC to try and bamboozle your opponent. It falls apart the second they start deciding to just smoke past the obvious Lunah camo marker and you lose with your awful army comp. There's a pretty good reason why they never bothered to resculpt those profiles.
Jammers, emaulers, mono filament, cheap panzerfausts. Perimeter weapons as well. MSV on a fireteam. Shaolin and Kuang Shi can tie up a TAG, but not eliminate unless a bunch of them make it into base to base. Short of crit fishing, a shock CCW is not an Anti TAG weapon. Nobody doubts that. It's the low mid range options that enabled those HI that are missing. The archetype is solid, but vanilla forces should have more than one. Guilang I'll give you, but Ninja are far from best in class. It's probably one of the worst TO skirmishers out there. Actual standouts like the Clipsos, Post Humans and Tuaregs offer more capability for the price. Hell, the Bandit does a far better job. Only the KHD on a stick platform is really worth considering, unless you want our only TO sniper.
Alot of my complaints would've gone away if they actually took the time to buff some of our underplayed crap, like 95% of the Ninja profiles. If they took the time to give me a cheap E/M weapon profile I would've been far less angry because we'd still have the hidden anti-rambo deterrent to keep players honest even if it didn't have the pure destructive power of a Kitsune. Instead they give out new and viable Ninja profiles to not one but TWO other sectorials and give the YJ players the middle finger. Then gave us some garbage tier CBLs for ISS, which nobody wanted anyway, and they weren't even affected in the slightest by the changes in the first place. Lol, except most of it was wrong. Sure.
Oh wow, dis is gunna be good. A decent TO sniper (hexa) has a 10% chance to wound an uhlans and a 60% chance to die. CA is literally the only vanilla faction packing a TO missile. So other than jammers (also available to one faction) you haven't listed a single decent ARO piece to threaten a TAG. Yet most factions seem to deal with a TAG rambo without a Kitsune just fine. Yu jing have plenty of things threatening a TAG in your DZ, the fact you've decided you don't like half of them doesn't mean the faction is limited. No-one said force, its merely one of several options. None of the models you've listed HAVE to be included to build a list with what I just said. If you're taking a TR bot you should probably have a hacker. Theres no point to max out shaolin unless you have rui shi and hsien to utilise it, even then the celestial has smoke. Kuang shi are a bonus, the fact you're trying to play up getting 5 regular orders for 33 points as some kind of disadvantage is hilarious. Two elite HI are ~110 points and 3.5-4 SWC. If you can't build a 300 point limited insertion list or 12 order list from that, then you need more help building lists. The fact that 4 kuangshi, celestial and 2 shaolin are an excellent addition to ANY army for 43 points is a faction buff, not some obligation that ties your hands. I thought you wanted an effective ARO to alpha strikers. No ARO strategy works everytime and theres always going to be counters. The fact you didn't even exert enough critical thinking to realise that the hac tao doesn't have to deployed next to lunah every time really indicates you're not discussing in good faith. Just looking for things to be grumpy about. This is pretty non-constructive. Maybe its time to go outside Mr. Grinch?
Emaulers, mono and MSV on a fireteam are a) not first turn AROs (as per the original alpha strike position) or b) available to sectorials (the main complaint is about vanilla here). and yu jing have perimeter weapons (OMG what?). Theres also camo assualt hackers (which at wip 14 the guilang is pretty good). Sure, but you can happily shoot at a TAG in CC with those models, because they cost all of 10 points. Short of mono, its probably one of the safest ways to kill a TAG (given it can't react for 2 - 3 rounds) The main point was Yu Jing has NOTHING to stop a rambo tag now kitsune/oniwaban is gone. which is blatantly hyperbolic, and while armchair generaling some fantasy situations is fun an all, the main point hasn't been proven right by either of you. I don't disagree, but some loss in variation is miles away from the hyperbolic drivel constantly seagulled into this thread (when its neither asked for or needed). [/quote] I think that will depend a lot on what you want your TO skirmisher to do. Gunfighting can be lifted by guilang (and to be fair, guilang carry a lot of weight on their shoulders). But situational CC a dangerous target in the midfield isn't achieved by any of those models listed. A ninja will far more effectively kill tough models (via CC) in the midfield then any of the aforementioned troops will be able to, they can break deadlocks. A lot of Yu jings strength now lies in the midfield. We struggle to reach the opponents DZ, but anything that wants to advance will be tarpitted by shaolin, kuangshi, mines and camo markers. At that point, we have a plethora of choices for the optimal unit to then destroy that unit. And its the combined arms that gets forgotten when you compare singular profiles. Sure, post-humans and tauregs are better than guilang, ninja and kanren. But in combined arms, yu jing put a lot of quality troops into the midfield, and then back them up with quality troops to counter attack. All supported by cheap orders who also effectively tarpit - keeping enemies in the midfield.
I honestly haven't tried zhanying yet even. I do eye them up every time I play a crane list where the crane doesn't do anything other than sensor a couple times.
Jammers are available to multiple factions now, and given CB's flavour of month propensity will likely to propagate to even more. I fully expect them to turn up somewhere in Vedic too. Other factions have the ability to hard punish an overextension of a rambo piece or directly confront it with potent access to anything with linked MLs, and E/M weaponry such as grenades. I didn't think I needed to list such basic concepts but clearly I did. Sorry, my bad. Sure... if it doesn't run in there and kill them first or mutilate your order pool. Note, this doesn't just apply to TAGs but any high value rambo piece. Before you could threaten it with a surprise stabbing, now if it goes hard, crushes one side of the board you don't have the orders or positioning to go after it. You are forced to take them because to effectively ward off a rambo attack the only real option for Vanilla is to now spam bodies as ablative armour for the pieces in your list you actually care about. They HAVE to be included if you don't want your list to have a massive glaring weakness to going second, getting rambo'd and crippled. Sure, you can build a list without them. I still do on the occassion, but every single time I am reminded about how garbage this list is in comparison to spamming bodies because the opposition takes advantage of the fact they can go hard and go deep without getting punished anymore. Let me be clear, I don't just complain about garbage on the forums. I do play it as well. I often use junk like the Guijia or write weird lists just for variety's sake, however, that doesn't fix it from being completely outshone right now by the need to spam bodies as raw ablative armour to soak orders. The TO camo stabbers leaving the faction heavily swung the faction's dynamic in list construction and playability. Your ARO strategy doesn't need to kill anything, you don't understand that properly. Your ARO strategy should not however be a 3rd of your list and most of your SWC for a grand total of 2 orders (one of which you don't get until you see fit to reveal its presence, which done voluntarily entirely removes its value), otherwise if your opponent bypasses it, which many lists may well do and simply not engage your ARO power houses and focus on positioning or the mission, then you are at a massive disadvantage. Because your ML Hac Tao and Major Lunah are not going to do a particularly good job of shoving a bunch of models hiding in quadrants or near buttons when they don't have LOF, nor are they going to want to go chase them down. This just shows you should actually put some terrain down on the table if you think it's reasonable that you can reliably deploy multiple ARO pieces across the table and have the cover the exact same fire lanes. It was pretty accurate and on topic though. YJ's immediate future is crap, and will be crap until CB gets off their ass and does something about it. Trying to cover for CB and sugar coat it is pretty non-constructive, about as constructive as telling everyone how good the CBLs are.
