A Face to Face is a method of dice rolling, not a game state. The section starts off with specifying that these advantages all are granted to the trooper with the skill. The rules say, effectively, "A cc special skill gives the user an advantage over the opponent trooper during the execution of a comparative dice roll". Edit, cutting the skills up and mashing it together to make the relevant bullet point readable, but with as little alteration as possible: Some CC Special Skills give a trooper a series of MODs and advantages applied to the Attribute of an enemy when making a Face to Face Roll. This does not say it gives these advantages to anyone else.
I appreciate you trying to approach this from another direction instead of following his lead implying reading the rules as written is so wrong it's garbage. Those descriptions you're referring to have a very limited scope. I don't see any wording going beyond, 'troopers have skills they can use'. Being able to use a skill doesn't have any baring on how it works or who it can be used on. I see nothing stating skills must only apply to it's user during one of their own FTF rolls. Do you have any rule or wording to that effect? Think of it like this... the skill isn't being given to someone else. I'm using my own CC Special Skill to impose a negative MOD to opponents in base to base with me. I'm sure it wasn't meant to but the first example only backs that assertion up. It describes the I-Khol trooper as applying the MOD to it's opponent before any FTF roll even occurs. Just from the troopers very own presence. We can infer it's referring to a FTF roll where the enemy would use it's MA skill but that's hardly helpful in the end.
But it doesn't say that. I mean, it literally (in a literal sense) doesn't say that. And it must say that to mean that. It says "Some CC Special Skills give a trooper a series of MODs and advantages that are displayed in Charts with the following elements:" (underline emphasis added) The CC Special Skills are defined as advantages for the trooper owning the skill, not by implying it, but by spelling it out strictly. These skills aren't defined as maluses to enemy troopers, as you claim, but advantages for the owning trooper.
That passage you are quoting is not a rule. (EDIT: removed) There's a list before and after about how to use these skills, that sentence doesn't come into play. However, even if I concede it as a rule, the wording doesn't change the use of this skill. "Some CC Special Skills gives the Makaul a series of MODs and advantages that are displayed in Charts with the following elements:" (underline emphasis added) The Makaul is still applying the I-Khol to itself. The skill being applied to itself causes an enemy in base to base to suffer the MOD on it's FTF rolls. Which in this case would apply to the enemy in a FTF with another trooper.
CC Special skills are not limited in use to the owners own FTF rolls. The rules allow them to be applied anytime the requirements are met. Which can happen before a FTF roll takes place. I'd appreciate everyone not ignoring this point and try to prove otherwise. EDIT: Allow me to help, I've been trying to see if being engaged in close combat limits a CC Special skills use to actual skill declarations but no luck atm.
How do you mean it's not a rule? The text literally tells you how to read the rules here. You're also completely mixing up the subject of the sentence. Hate to tell it to you, but with this level of selective reading we can't ever reach clarity.
My only response to that would be an insult in kind. There is nothing wrong with my reading skills or understanding of the words being used. I've asked a straight forward question that you're either incapable of understanding, incapable of providing evidence to the contrary, or unwilling at this time. None of which proves my reading of the rules incorrect. I guess I should quote most of the page. The sentence after How to Read.. just states a fact. It says we have skills like MA and I-Khol that give us a chart and here's how you read it. The line itself provides no rule to follow. The bullets are what provide explanation/rules on how to interpret and apply those CC Special Skill charts. I've even spent the time proving a sentence that's not a rule to be irrelevant anyway. How can you look at all these other actual rules below and focus on what's not a rule? And you guys have the nerve to say I have selective reading? Unbelievable. CC Special Skills are Specials Skills that can be used while engaged in Close Combat. All Skills included in the group of CC Special Skills share a few common traits: Their use is optional. They are only usable in Close Combat, so a trooper must be in base to base contact with an enemy in order to use them. CC Special Skills, as well as all MODs provided by them, work and are applied in both Active and Reactive Turns, unless otherwise specified. If a trooper has more than one CC Special Skill, he can use them all and combine their effects. For instance, a trooper with Berserk and Martial Arts can apply both and combine the MODs provided by the former with the MODs of one of the Levels of the latter. If a CC Special Skill is an exception to these rules, it is stated explicitly in its description. How to Read CC Charts Some CC Special Skills give a trooper a series of MODs and advantages that are displayed in Charts with the following elements: Attack MOD: A MOD to the CC Attribute of the user when making a CC Attack. Opponent MOD: A MOD applied to the Attribute of an enemy when making a Face to Face Roll. Damage MOD: A MOD to the PH Attribute of the user to determine the Damage of a successful CC Attack. Burst MOD: A MOD to the B value of the user's CC Weapon (Knife, CC Weapon, Pistol...) when making a CC Attack. Type of Damage: Special effects applied to the Damage done in CC by the user. Special: General special effects the user can apply.
If you're talking about this: You haven't explained how the focus has moved from the trooper to the enemy. Without that explanation, the FtF Roll is being made by the trooper with the CC Special Skill.
There is a situation that could allow ikhol to stack : It's Alpeh active turn, Achilles is engaged with two makhaul. Achilles declare dodge, both makhaul ORA with cc attacks using MA lvl 1. Does Achilles take -6 on his dodge or -12 ? Ps : why is there two pages of discussion on how ikhol applies when it has been clerly stated you need to do a face to face roll to infilct a ikhol effects to your opponent ? For once it's a very clear rule
A Makaul and a Moderator are in base to base. The Makaul does not declare an Order or ARO. It declares the use of an automatic skill, I-Khol, to impose a negative MOD on the Moderator. The requirements for the skill are legal. The Makaul is in base to base. So the MOD is applied to the Moderator if it makes a FTF roll. When or Who the FTF roll may be against isn't stipulated in the rules. Only that it applies if the enemy makes a FTF roll. Queue another trooper CC attacking the Moderator.
Your question was answered. I did write where it said it applies to that trooper only. Remember that this is a permissive rule set, so if the rules say a set of advantages applies to trooper X, it doesn't need to say it applies only to trooper X. Well, the argument I'm running so far is that the rules state that; when you read Makaul Adam's i-Kohl the advantage it gives are to be given to Makaul Adam in Face to Face rolls. Permissive rules gives that when Makaul Bob can't claim the advantages i-Kohl give to Makaul Adam since only Makaul Adam was specified as being the beneficiary of that instance of i-Kohl, so Makaul Bob is left with only their own advantages.
Answered and countered. I clearly explained how your point is incorrect and changes nothing. Please don't tell me that I'm selectively reading or my comprehension is the issue again.
Your counter is that the passage I am referring to is not rules. Prove that you are correct. So far you've not provided proof, only dismissed parts of the rules by elevating other rules, that do not contradict the rules I refer to, in importance.
I've explained to you that it's not a rule AND proven it's irrelevance as if it were a rule. Whether or not the I-Khol skill is used or applied on the Makaul or the Moderator changes nothing. I'm completely fine with it only applying to the Makaul. Under those conditions it still functions as I've explained. Using a skill and suffering the effects of a skill are two completely different things. According to the rules... The -CC MOD can be activated and applied BEFORE any Orders are spent or FTF roll made. Please understand that. If you do, we can move on with the discussion. Otherwise there is nothing else I can say.
As with other Dodges with different MODs applying, the Dodge Roll would be checked separately against each Attack. So -6 in each case. See the final example of the Dodge Skill where a Mine and a standard BS Attack are being Dodged at the same time. The Requirements are fulfilled, but the rules for CC Special Skills aren't. Again, for the umpteenth time, the Makaul will have to make a FtF Roll and the MOD will be applied to the target of that FtF Roll. You appear to be aware that is how it's intended work, and you also appear to be aware that your interpretation of the CC Special Skills rules isn't universal, so why pick another pointless hill to die on? No. This is categorically wrong. The Opponent MOD is activated if the trooper 'declares CC Attack, Dodge or Engage'. The Opponent MOD will be applied during step 7 of the Order Expenditure Sequence: 7. Resolution: Players take measurements, determine MODs, and make Rolls. My emphasis.
But you can't show me a rule stating the Makaul must be making a FTF before I can apply the -MOD. If the requirements are filled and there is no such rule, because you haven't provided one, then your interpretation of the rule is incorrect. You're changing the written rule to suit your interpretation. That is not how the skill is activated or MOD put into effect. The ACTUAL rule is below with my emphasis: As shown in the i-Kohl Chart, each Level of this CC Special Skill provides a negative MOD to the opponent in CC, no matter if the owner of i-Kohl declares CC Attack, Dodge or Engage. This rule is simply telling me I can use the skill in combination with other order/aro declarations. It in no way says it only applies in those situations. And if you really think the above means anything relevant, how do you separate it from this rule on the same page? which gives a different set of skills: NOTE*: i-Kohl can be used even when declaring Dodge or Engage. This is correct. But the automatic skill is already affecting the enemy trooper in base to base. The fact the MOD itself isn't applied to the roll until step 7 is irrelevant. During resolution we say, oh he's next to that Makaul who has I-Khol active, apply the -MOD.
The default is that CC Special Skills work when declaring a CC Attack. Unfortunately the FAQ entry that spells this out hasn't been published yet. I-Kohl also works when declaring a Dodge or Engage, in addition to just CC Attack. So yes, you are flat-out misreading that part of the rule. The I-Kohl user MUST declare CC Attack, Dodge or Engage for it to work. Any other Skill declaration will not trigger I-Kohl, as clearly seen in the third example, where a BS Attack is declared and therefore I-Kohl isn't triggered.
