Hey guys, just wanted to know if several models with Ikohl can stack their penalties on an enermy model, and if so, does this work if he is attacking one ikohl model and is engaged with several, or only if he is attacking many? Also, extension question - is it possible to edit the infinity wiki? EG, after resolving this question, it could be added to the wiki page which only has the 1 on 1 examples from the book, and no obvious mention of several ikohl interactions.
First question - I'm not actually sure. Infinity doesn't have an explicit overarching rule about how to handle multiple instances of the same modifier stacking. For the most part it doesn't come up, but there's no reason you couldn't be in base contact with multiple models that all have i-kohl at the same time. The only example I know of is low visibility zones, and they explicitly state that you only take the one greatest mod and ignore the others. Second question - in order to guarantee accuracy and consistency, the Infinity wiki does not allow public editing. Only authorized members can edit pages, and even then, the policy is to only put in official rules and errata, not one-off answers from forum posts.
For stacking, please see the main rules for CC Special Skills: http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/CC_Special_Skills Opponent MODs only apply to Face to Face Rolls, so a trooper's I-Kohl is only going to affect rolls made against that specific trooper. In other words, no they can't stack. Wiki editing - as Toadchild says, wiki editing is extremely restricted, partly because the second edition one got messed up with people changing the rules, and partly because the wiki is an official source of rules so all content added it needs to be checked with CB. That said, if you see any errors, or have suggestions for extra links, let me know as I'm the maintainer/updater of the wiki.
While we are at I-Kohl how exactly does it work with "engage"? The rules tell me explicitly that i can use it for engage but the requirements say: "REQUIREMENTS Either in an Active or Reactive Turn, a trooper must reach or be in base to base contact with an enemy in order to be able to use this Special Skill." But engage only reaches the enemy if i win the FtF roll. So how can i use it? If i use it for engage and fail the roll i used a skill i wan't allowed to. But if i don't apply I-kohl and win the roll then I-kohl was completely useless for engage.
Engage is weird, by declaring it you basically count as being in B2B with your opponent: it's why it enables CC Attack as a valid Short Skill declaration and Martial Arts modifiers affect an Engaging Trooper. It's kinda like Dodging into the Trigger Area of a Mine, and the Mine Triggering irrespective of whether you succeed or fail at your Dodge: the requirements trigger even though the outcome isn't realised until resolution.
Opponent MOD: A MOD applied to the Attribute of an enemy when making a Face to Face Roll. Nothing in the rules explicitly state what you're claiming. I-Khol is applied WHEN making a face to face roll. There is nothing indicating who that roll must be against. Is there another reason they don't stack?
If the enemy trooper isn't attacking the I-Kohl trooper then the I-Kohl trooper isn't making a Face to Face Roll.
But that's not the requirement listed below. Hopefully there's a clear explanation but all I can find at the moment is a lot of text about being in base to base. The example only supports this. Where does it state the effects are only during a face to face roll with the owner of this skill? I-KOHL AUTOMATIC SKILL CC Special Skill REQUIREMENTS Either in an Active or Reactive Turn, a trooper must reach or be in base to base contact with an enemy in order to be able to use this Special Skill. i-Kohl example 1 Azra, an Odalisque with i-Kohl L3 is engaged in Close Combat with a Shaolin Monk. In spite of his strict training, the monk cannot help but be affected by the spellbinding presence of the beautiful Odalisque. The Shaolin Monk can use any of his Martial Arts Levels, but he will have to apply a -9 MOD to his CC.
In the link I provided: How to Read CC Charts Some CC Special Skills give a trooper a series of MODs and advantages that are displayed in Charts with the following elements: Attack MOD: A MOD to the CC Attribute of the user when making a CC Attack. Opponent MOD: A MOD applied to the Attribute of an enemy when making a Face to Face Roll. Damage MOD: A MOD to the PH Attribute of the user to determine the Damage of a successful CC Attack. Burst MOD: A MOD to the B value of the user's CC Weapon (Knife, CC Weapon, Pistol...) when making a CC Attack. Type of Damage: Special effects applied to the Damage done in CC by the user. Special: General special effects the user can apply. The logic construction of bullet 2 is: Some CC Special Skills give a trooper a series of MODs and advantages ... when making a Face to Face Roll. The user of the CC Special Skill is the trooper that has to be making a Face to Face Roll.
It reads nothing like that. CC Special skills give a trooper a series of MODs. It doesn't specify the trooper must be the owner of the skill. Bullet #2 doesn't stipulate these rolls only apply against the owner of the skill either. So we have a situation with an automatic skill(I-Khol) that's only requirement is to be in base to base contact. So when a trooper comes into base to base contact we can apply the negative modifier to their CC attribute for ANY face to face rolls.
It seems to me a CC skill was intended to provide a series of bonuses to their owner. One of those bonuses was to apply a negative MOD to the opponent. However, because of this ridiculous structure (providing a bonus of a negative mod to the opponent) the wording needed to be very precise. They seem to have failed.
Another requirement for I-Khol is besides base to base contact that the owner of the I-Kohl declares Dodge, CC Attack or Engage. If someone walks up to your Odalisque and her ARO is BS Attack you won't get anything. So it does not apply to ANY FtF roll. (Not that this matters for stacking)
Yes it does, this is basic English grammar. For it to be the enemy trooper making the Face to Face Roll the entire structure of the sentence would need to be different.
No, for it to ONLY apply in situations with the owner of the skill it needs to be written differently. If you want to turn this into a grammar lesson please let me know. You're making a leap not supported by the rule. Walk through this step by step. My trooper with I-Khol is in base to base with an enemy trooper. I want to use I-Khol so i check the requirements. It's an Automatic CC Special Skill and the only requirement is base to base. Automatic skills don't require an order or aro. CC Special Skills has nothing relevant to contribute either. Note the first sentence under How to Read CC Charts, isn't an actual rule. It's a description about giving something to a trooper. Trooper isn't defined as an ally, enemy, or the owner. The only relevant line here is for the effect we want to apply "A MOD applied to the Attribute of an enemy when making a Face to Face Roll." So lets apply the effects. IT says I need to declare the effect i want to use. So I declare the negative MOD to my opponent. Is there a target for this? I don't know it doesn't say. Luckily it's irrelevant as we both need to be in base to base and who suffers the effects is clear. My enemy is now suffering the effects and I haven't declared an order or aro. If the enemy suffering the effects is in a face to face with someone else, you better believe the negative MOD applies. That is not a requirement. It's not listed under requirements.(EDIT: although Infinity has a terrible habit of doing it anyway) The listed skill declarations are not all inclusive either. "No matter if", doesn't mean what you think it means. There's also another similar statement that only lists two skill declarations. "NOTE*: i-Kohl can be used even when declaring Dodge or Engage." Does that mean i can't use it during a CC Attack? Because you can't have it both ways.
That sentence is structured to make the owner the one making the Roll, not the enemy. What's your aim here? Why are you choosing to read this in a way that doesn't make sense and doesn't fit with the rest of the rules?
Just because infinity does not write it under requirements does not mean it is not one. Please read the rules till the end even the examples. "i-Kohl example 3 Beautiful Azra lures a Ninja on an Active Turn. He declares Move and CC against her. Once they come into base to base contact, if Azra reacts by declaring CC Attack or Dodge she will be able to implement her i-Kohl during the Face to Face Roll, but not if she declares a BS Attack." http://infinitythewiki.com/en/I-Kohl This note just points out the difference between i-kohl and Martial Arts (or other CC special skills). It is a reminder that is also works for engage and dodge. Most CC special skills only work if you declare a CC attack. Unless said otherwise under the skill.
Then show the structure. Show where it only applies the MOD during the owners FTF. Do something to prove your point please. Because asking me about my aim is deflecting. We're not talking about how how I choose to read it. We're talking about how it's written and what it means. But if at the very least you admit there is more than one way to read it, I would hope you can concede that it means there is more than one legal way to play the game. Which is terrible in tournament settings.
That's rich. :-( "A MOD applied to the Attribute of an enemy when making a Face to Face Roll." For that to apply to the enemy trooper would require wording like this: "A MOD applied to the Attribute of an enemy when that enemy makes a Face to Face Roll." Without that, or a similar clause, it's referring to the original subject. That's standard grammar, not something I need to prove.
Again, if there's a way to read it that makes sense and is consistent with the way the entire rest of the game works, and a way to read it that doesn't make sense and is inconsistent, why would you choose to read it in the second way?
You really think that should be the standard grammar for a set of rules? Especially when no original subject has been defined? Every other bullet point in that list refers to the users roll. This bullet refers to the enemies roll. None of these statements indicate these MODs apply only during FTF rolls with the user of the skill. You're correct, It doesn't say, 'when that enemy makes a FTF roll'. It also doesn't say, 'during a FTF roll with the user'. Which means all of those MODs apply to any FTF roll, not only to the rolls they were intended for. I choose to read it as written. I try not to make assumptions until i'm forced to do so. Because assumptions lead to errors and mistakes. Most people I've met in my life just make assumption after assumption... they make a hell of a lot more errors. Some more disastrous than others. I want you to understand that not everyone will start Infinity by entering into an existing community. They won't all look at the forums. They'll sit down with their friends or solo and try to learn from scratch. There are players with a level of experience ranging from 0 to your own level. There are competitive players who try to push the limits of the game to win. The rules are not clear at best and players simply don't play the same way everywhere. Even among veterans. So being able to point to a rule book and say... that's how it's played, is the very least i expect from a game.
