Here's my thought on Tohaa: I'm really good with them, other people suck at playing against them, or they're broken. Pick one. Seriously. I switched to Tohaa in January, and I have lost one--one--game since then. And it was a 150 point game, and I forgot what the mission parameters were while building my list last-minute. The others have all been wins. That's ridiculous, and it's not because I suddenly decided to git gud. My win-loss ratio has been in the black for quite some time now, but not like this, and there haven't been any earth-shattering developments in my local meta. I don't know what's causing the skew--and frankly I don't have the spare time to ponder the sweet mysteries of artichoke supremacy--but I'm going to pack them in after my current escalation league wraps up and move on to something more challenging (how convenient that all these new sectorials are being released!).
I agree, and think the forums can portray Infinity badly to the wider world with tribalistic and over-simplified arguments. So it's worth reflecting on the actual importance of what's said here in the forums, and its actual significance to the community. Not to say the opinions here aren't important or have no significance; just that their importance and significance aren't quite what we like to think they are (where 'we' are the active forum community, including myself and my friends here). Rather, I think this community is made up of a small number of people who care very much about the state of the game and how it's played. That itself lends gravitas and makes the opinions worth reading, but it doesn't mean the opinions are correct. It really enjoy reading comments that are intelligent or insightful, or that express something complex or nuanced, but I try not to be too disappointed otherwise; I just take note that people in this rarified community feels a particular way about something or other. All of which is to say that people considering Tohaa shouldn't conclude that All Tohaa Players Are Dirty Cheats Deliberately Abusing Broken Profiles, but rather that they might well encounter some pushback when they throw down that new army!
Why would you run your HI when Sukeuls are cheaper and better? You can just do what Ariadna does and just not run anything hackable, and it will probably be *better* than your list with Ectros etc. Saying you have no chance for "midfield control" when you have a warband with eclipse smoke in every fireteam is just wrong. Tohaa's limitations are ameliorated pretty heavily by the Sukeul profile, which is why it's taken so often.
I'm gonna tell my symbiomates story. I was running NCA vs a Gorgos list and it'd been going poorly for me. I'd had some poor trades and no matter how hard I tried I couldn't win a roll against the Gorgos, active or reactive. It's well into my dz but I believe I have a chance. I use my last command token for a coordinated order and use a Fusilier hacker and ML, Auxilia (bot was long gone), and, the spearhead, a Hexa KHD I'd had in HD that was in the Gorgos' rear arc. He chooses to oppose the ML and against all hope I win. All the other combis land as well. Holy shit I might actually have this game. "I use its symbiomate." Its what?? "Symbiomate. It eliminates all hits in one order." i lost the game
Your opponent really should have said something. I always try to remind people about Mates if I have any reason to think they've forgotten one is attached to a model, because once early on I didn't, and the whole experience left a bad taste in my mouth (happily, my opponent was a good sport about it).
Yeah, that definitely sucks <group hug>@gregmurdock</hug> and the reason is because of what WiT said a while back: Because a distinguishing feature of Infinity is that players have to make tactical decisions in advance of seeing how they turn out. We estimate unit positions for weapon range, and then measure to find out how well our range estimates worked out. We select one weapon over another, use it, and then find out at Resolution whether it was the best decision. We allocate a weapon's Burst amongst target models, then roll the dice to find out whether our tactics worked out. Then Tohaa come along with Symbiomates and can wait until all those tactical decisions, measurements and dice rolls have been made, and THEN decide if it's efficacious to to use the Symbiomate or, if maybe the results seem unlikely to be injurious, better to use it later. Like other contributors, I do kind of like the Symbiomates mechanism, and think it fits Tohaa and their alien presence in the game, but it does feel anithetical to the way the game's played generally to make the tactical decision AFTER (most of) the outcomes are known. Wouldn't the rule still be powerful and interestingly alien if the Tohaa player had to declare Symbiomate after the first Short Skill or Long Skill, and BEFORE ARO's are declared; or would that not work at all?
It's problematic primarily due to the ubiquity of triads sporting Mates, less so on a solo unit (e.g., a Gorgos). Here's why: if you require the Tohaa player to declare Mate use on a linked troop before his opponent declares AROs, that gives the opponent the ability to wait to see whether the Mate's being triggered, and then choose whether to shoot that troop or another member of the triad. It'd be a serious, serious, nerf. It would also fly in the face of the fluff, which is that these little fellas jump in front of incoming attacks and sacrifice themselves. And yes, I know you can retcon fluff, but my personal view is that doing so should generally be avoided. Another option would be to require that Mates be declared after AROs are declared, but before they're resolved. Still a nerf, but one that I suspect more Tohaa players would be OK with. More of a middle ground. In the reactive turn, it's the same: you just declare after an attack of some sort is declared, but before it's resolved.
It's probably all those things honestly. Tohaa is strong, but it's unique abilities cause more people to tilt than any other army (from what I've observed anyway). Even though I think I've level headed about the match-up now, I still groan internally every time I get paired against them and I have no doubt that it affects both mine and others' play, no matter how imperceptible it is to us at the time.
Other things I mention: If you take that path you'll hit the Moran's repeater, and you can't stealth past. Your BS will probably be 0. Don't end your order facing away dummy. She has an Assault Pistol too. MA 2 is stronger this time. Etc. I think it's fair and by the book to not note things but when I'm preventing a long string of orders on a mistake, or preventing a huge game changing event on a little mistake I just say something. To what degree you do this depends on how you play, I consider games to be a cooperative experience and I'm a little more leniant than people probably should be. The exception is if they won't learn their lesson. I let someone discover (in reactive) what was clearly an Intruder HMG with Atalanta because they wouldn't remember. But yeah, I would have mentioned in that case, "all you're doing is going for my Mate."
But surely as the game currently represents that fluff in the Order Sequence, the little fellas are waiting to see if their master actually takes any hits, and then somehow retroactively absorbing the impacts after they've happened and only if its deemed worthwhile? Thats not how the rest of the game is played, at least as far as I can see. For example, we dont allocate Weapon Burst amongst say, a Fireteam, then Roll the die, and if we get a Critical, a hit and a miss say "Ah, a crit; Ill move that across to the Fireteam Leader"... Yes, I think that would fix my misgivings about the way the general game rules seem to be being bent out of shape; sounds good.
I believe Tohaa are slightly overtuned Are they ZOMG BROKEN OP? No, not really, but they do have some problematic parts to their kit. Specifically symbiomates and symbiont armor, which can combine to create extremely tough units that cost peanuts. I really liked the way fire used to work with them, and would like it if it could come back in some form (such as remove symbiont with no save, or automatically force the mate to be used.) But I am by no means a balance expert, so I trust CB will take appropriate steps
I *hope* they will. But I have a feeling that balance is lower on their priority list than it is for most players.
@Hecaton ... as the Two Players Least Likely To Agree About Anything, you don't suppose we might've just triggered some kind of alarm bell deep within the Dark Fortress of Cangas?
I hate everything about Tohaa, the models, the fluff, their rules, everything. I used to play the majority of my games against Tohaa. It was a huge uphill struggle at first, but now I'm confident in my ability to win against them simply due to getting so much practice in facing them. It's still an un-fun experience to play against Tohaa though, and that's mostly due to the symbiomates. In the spirit of constructive criticism, these are the changes I would make to Tohaa: 1. Bring back the N2 version of Fire Vulnerability. 2. Change Symbiomates to allow the bearer to ignore Fire Vulnerability and persist for the entire game/life of the symbiont armor. 3. Let Kumotails (the engineer/doctor?) be able to heal/repair symbiont armor again.
To those having so much problems against Tohaa, this is the most important advice that I give to my oponents: Teamplates. And, if possible, Camo Skirmisher with Teamplate. That's all you need to crack through Fireteams and Symbiomates. @jimbo slice As far as I know, Symbiont Armour never was repairable; you needed the doctor+engineer combo to heal a Symbiont-Armour-equiped-trooper from Unconscious, but you could never get the Symbiont Armour from Inactive to Active.
My most common strategy is templates and camo infiltrators. The template gets tanked by symbio armor or a mate and the attack piece goes down to burst 2 AROs. Anything I use to engage with CC is going to be taken apart the following turn by a Makaul or HFT on the way in. Even with smoke there is usually a burst 2 MSV2 guy floating around. Best luck I've had Vs Tohaa are AD units coming in the back field, and even then, they usually just guts turn around after only taking 1 wound or mating and you're then in their LoF. Their sheer survive-ability vs their cost is just unreal, and usually allows them to tank surprise shots and then having good chances to win in ARO on the following order. I don't understand the talk of Tohaa not having spearhead LTs to take advantage of CoC either. Boarding teams and Neema can easily go full Rambo.
First of all, why are Tohaa players deploying such that it's easy to get templates on multiple guys in a fireteam? Second, fighting like that requires a surfeit of orders (Since you have to use one to blow up the symbiomate, likely losing your template-thrower in the process), and Tohaa already have a higher order efficiency. Essentially you're saying "Tohaa are overpowered, you can't outplay them, just hope to get lucky." Tohaa are actually the faction that it's the worst idea to throw direct templates at, because they just throw a mate and then shoot your warband in the face. You'e spent an order to pop a symbiomate and lose a guy. Better off just shooting the model, that way you don't lose anyone.
