Yeah, for the factions that can take multiple Repeaterbots, a Coordinated laying of Sniffers followed by Sensor across them all is pretty standard stuff.
Not to mention the Karen Minelayer + Zhanying/Crane combo, clearing TO and camo off central objectives in the first order.
Deactivator is only better provided a) range is between 8 and 16 and b) the target has mimetism and c) is in cover. If one of the above isn't true, then the Deactivator is only marginally better. If range is between 16 and 32, then Combi Rifle is basically always better. Deactivator is absolutely a weird skill to let pass given those odds.
You might want to double-check those odds, Mimetism is already enough to make the Deactivator better from 8-16".
Tunguska got the Stempler, which is the Combi+FO bot. Not a bad choice, IMO, as you'd want your sensorbot walking point. I generally agree with these points, particularly the orders problem. Before we started seeing the mixed links, my running assumption for IA was a Zuyong Core, a Shang Ji Haris, a Yan Huo (potentialy Duo), and a Daofei/Hac Tao (preferably Daofei due to Infiltration). Gives you something like this: Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 ZÚYǑNG Lieutenant (AutomediKit) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1 | 39) ZÚYǑNG MULTI Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 31) ZÚYǑNG Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 30) ZÚYǑNG Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (2 | 36) ZÚYǑNG Boarding Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 26) SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43) SHÀNG JÍ MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 40) SHÀNG JÍ Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 40) YĀN HUǑ Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54) DÀOFĚI Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 59) 6.5 SWC | 398 Points Open in Infinity Army Note what's missing: Doc, engineer, antihacking outside the Tinbots. And orders. LI at 400 points! You cannot add another heavy weapon, either, because of SWC limits. Almost the entire HI lineup is Line Troops, too. Might be fun to throw down with, but it's very limited. Nomads and Ariadna are going to giggle maniacally when they see this list, due to hideous vulnerability to hacking and glue. JSA will have a field day with EM and CC.
It's a piece of equipment that requires a significant order spent to discover but the results are almost secure. On regular scenario At least 2 orders to plant them on position and another one to discover (of course that's on a best case scenario, moving in straight line, without enemy oposition...) I didn't see them used on tournaments yet and The only person that uses sniffers in my local community it's me. mainly through kanren minelayers. Obviously because is dirt cheap to use sensor when the sniffer is already placed at 4 inches of the mid of the table. outside ISS I find more common to use directly the sensor troop. But this topic is not about the use of particular rules. It's about the invincible. I definitely find the appeal of a BS13 armored sectorial. But my concerns are there. Until I see them on the table I'll be worried about all that stuff. the profiles that they've teased us so far are plain and direct. Now we lack the glue that fills the gaps and makes a solid list with options and alternatives. And I've seen good and bad sectorials comming to light and in desperate need of fixing. The military orders, morats, JSA... are pretty good now, but when they've came to light they gave the vive of being incomplete and hard to play. Of course things have improved. The testers now have a finer sense of the game. You just need to see the NA2 sectorials or tunguska. But the fact that IA is one of the first tested sectorials (or at least was almost complete 2 years a go) makes me think that it's also the punching bag to test the others. And that reminds me to other companies and makes me being overcautious. Ehm... and to rambo warbands or BS Ad Troopers, or... daofei is definitely out if we take credit to bostria. And Hac-tao seems to be in due to the leaked invincible illustration. I Think that a lot of the lists are going to be centered on the Zhanshi Corelink... and thus you'll be seeing lists like this Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 ZHANSHI Ametralladora / Pistola, Cuchillo. (1 | 19) ZHANSHI Hacker (Disp. de Hacker) Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0.5 | 19) ZHANSHI Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI Teniente Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 11) SOLDADO TIGRE Sanitario (MediKit) Fusil Combi + Lanzallamas Lig. / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 29) HAC TAO Lanzamisiles, Nanopulser / Pistola, Arma CC DA. (2 | 65) SHÀNG JÍ Fusil Combi + Lanzallamas Lig. + TinBot B (Deflector N2) / Pistola, Arma CC Shock. (0 | 40) SHÀNG JÍ Spitfire / Pistola, Arma CC Shock. (2 | 42) SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Disp. de Hacker de Asalto) Fusil Combi + Lanzallamas Lig. / Pistola, Arma CC Shock. (0.5 | 43) 6 CAP | 290 Puntos Abrir en Infinity Army Too inocent and straightforward to my liking, extremely vulnerable to AD troopers or impersonators... Of course this is a wild guess list. But you can see the weight of those HIs. I would love to see a BS or even a light shotgun zhanshi option for defensive purposes against AD troopers, there is room for it on an hipotetical 2 Zhanshi blister (we still miss the Grenade launcher). Another think I would like is the Shangji Haris to have the tinbot. That would be lovely for all the haris options But I don't hold hopes about any of that.
I did check the odds, but it is correct that within 8 to 16, against a mine, Deactivator is better by 76% versus 80%. This doesn't really change that you could remove this skill completely and save on ink because its +3 range band is so poor. It is functionally replaceable by a combi rifle that nearly all Engineers have. But I admit I'm comparing this entirely wrong, the correct comparison is this: Gongcheng or Weibing Deactivator vs exposed mine: 80% Rui Shi vs mine in cover: 82% 'cause the Deactivator isn't only competing for orders using only the Engineer or Pathfinder, it's competing against all possible units across the list whom has a gun making Deactivator the worse choice for that order in nearly all cases except for the few rare cases where the Engineer or "Pathfinder" is the single unit where it costs fewest orders to execute this skill with, meaning it's missing something critical such as a burst, an extended range band (at least to the same as Spitfire), or being usable through G: Servants to actually be worth spending any amount of time considering. Hell, the only unit I can think of where it is not a waste of time at the moment is Kaplan (and that Morat unit, but I'm less sure), but primary attack vector Engineers in fireteams isn't exactly common.
I don't mind too much about deactivator or sniffers because they're cheap or free. But I've prefered a Wider and useful use for them. For example deactivator having burst 2 instead of a Plus 6 on short range were is useless against mines, koalas or most of the deployable equipment, minelayer being able to steal deployable equipment on zone of control without line of sight or the sniffer being like repeater instead of a deployable one (even if sensor doesn't give the +6 mod through sniffers) but we're stepping out of the question here. Some of us have some concerns about Invincible. Not tears, grieve or whatever silly thing the community blames us for. And we are trying to guess what has CB planed for some of them (not all of them, because any sectorial has to have some weaknesses) Tinbots seem the answer to hacking, and the 0cap of some of them is a good sign considering the high cap of HI special weapons Missile launchers is somehow part of the CB solution for the lack of good Yujing ARO pieces But we still miss a lot of the picture.
Its unlikely, but in addition to the anti-hacking bonus of current TinBots, would some sort of specific counterhacking defense be something that could fit into the game? Not a hacking device at all, so doesnt make a unit a specialist or qualify for REMs or what have you, but something that fires off an ARO when hacked, to do a killer-hacker-esque retaliatory strike. Probably one-use, since if every hack was countered it'd be unfair, but essentially a thing loaded onto an HI that means the first hack attempt is going to get Brain Blasted back, forcing a faction like Nomads to make decisions about using 'sacrificial' hackers to take the hit and expend the defense followed by better hackers to shut down the HI vs risking it with a good hacker vs not hacking at all and trying a different approach. Not a Chest Mine rules-wise, but conceptually a Shang Ji with a Cybermine strapped to their chest.
Weirdly, I've been pondering both Pheasants and sniffers for a while, and maybe those two facts are linked... Given that ISS is thematically a paramilitary police organisation, I see it similar to a movie portrayal of something like the FBI - agents who are law enforcement, not special forces - but backed up with advanced technology to help their investigations (maybe I've been watching too much of the Wire recently). Tactically, this explains the high presence of sensors (on several Core and Haris fireteam options), for long-range triangulated fire. That extensive sensor network also might explain some of the lower BS and PH stats, along with the Weibing to sat-lock mopes, which might be a little too unbalanced otherwise. One of the roles of a Pheasant is to takedown well-armed, hunkered positions, hence the stun grenades, which need a speculative lob to effect a breach, and catch suspects for some polite questions later. Pheasants had PH12 even, then that speculative lob would be on 18's, which is perhaps a little high? Granted, the sat-lock tax seems circumstantial, but I've used the stun effect of Symbiobombs out of LoF, and found it to be very handy indeed.
ISS is definitely on point as an Internal security force. In addition to what you mentioned there are: The relative lack of high endurance advance troops such as the Guilang and Daofei Extreme prevalence of MSV2 which are usually assigned to anti insurgent / Hunter-killer units Use of penal troops which require separate and secure barracks Ornate nature of the Imperial Agents garb That said, I am curious to what exactly is the theme for IA in CB's mind. We may be be spinning our wheels if what we consider IA is even slightly off from what their view is.
Sensors don't Grant Sat-lock, It's a separate skill. And even if you take a weibing, you need a EVO to make sat-lock usefull. The enemy can always perform resets against your WIL-6 (without penalties with EVO). Gotcha spotlight is the other Marking tool but SI doesn't have a extensive Hacking network and the Pheasant hacker doesn't have grenades, so you need to take a duo and make some suboptimal moves to do what? make your oponent dodge instead of firing? Don't get me wrong the pheasant is playable, It always was, even before the rework of N3 when they were even more expensive. But throwing speculative grenades at 7s on good range is crappy. Spending a huge deal of points in MA, CC skills a decent CC weapon and deal a crappy damage of 11 in CC is lame. Id rather liked a PH12 and MA1 to at least have a minimum proficiency at both and a boost on dodge with a little/no impact on the cost of the troop. They've claimed to fix the pheasant but this result to me is a no go. Base players will avoid taking them into action. As you will actively use them they're a very pricey fusilier with weird equipment and CoC. The pheasant was always a pricey toolbox but at least before the changes it was relatively decent on every task. The zhanying are expensive too but at least they're usefull and solid on their approach. And as it is now there are plenty of room for new troops. We'll probably see another skirmisher, Although it might be an unorthodox one, like the kanren.
A Zhanshi costing 250 points is playable. I don't find it constructive to assign quality based on being able to field a unit. Sat-Lock is a result of having both Sensor and Forward Observer. Gotcha is an IMM-1 hacking program, I think you meant Spotlight.
That's precisely my point. You can field phesants, and even use pheasants but at the end you'll be using them as fusiliers or as CoC cheerleaders on the bast majority of the games, just because they don't shine in other traits. And sat-lock is a separate skill listed on the profile, that requires both skills, but having both skills doesn't grant It. I don't know if they've intended to be a bonuss for having both. They had their chance on the zhanyin FO and they've loosed it. And in addition to that, there is the -6 mod to the skill. I think that they've never intended sat-lock to be a main strategy. Even without the mod it's difficult to succeed A F2F one die roll and then another sequence of one die rolls whose failure can diminish considerably the impact of the strategy (for example if you aim 2 targets under the template, if one succesfully dodges no more exploit). That's without taking in consideration the amount of pieces you need to align in order to perform that strategy (at least 3, weibing, EVO panguling and son-bae. All of them avaliable into all the army lists) Sensors on the other hand Are too good. +6 discover on a 8' radius area without mods... WOW! That's more like the essence of a policial/counter insurgent force. Forget about the missile thing!
Right. Read that line backwards. Sensor-mediocre Nomads does have a unit with Sensor and FO (Grenzer) and it's nice to know that Sat-Lock is not available to them as I previously thought. Sat-Lock is, however, really devastating when you have an EVO REM and Guided ML. When that hits, the targeted unit will be basically dead from Guide Missile attacks that's hitting on 18's that you can only PH-3 against. This might not be something you can use to clear out the enemy team efficiently, but it is very useful to remove single problematic units such as hackers, ninjas, and other units with mediocre PH, and low ARM efficiently. Less good against medium to high ARM and/or with medium to high PH, but the vast majority of units, even HI, doesn't qualify here. For instance, Mary Problems. Assuming it's feasible to get a Chaiyi within 9" of Mary on the first short skill, drop a sniffer with the second, Mary's reaction to this is irrelevant since you now have a Sniffer in range of her (doesn't matter if the Chaiyi gets isolated, IMMed, blackouted, etc). 39.25% chance of a Weibing Sat-Locking Mary. Give it two orders if unlucky. Mary can't get out of the area since Reset doesn't allow movement and Sat-Lock only allows Guts Rolls when it succeeds. Let's assume the JCT/Nomad player has 1 normal Hacking Device that isn't threatened by the Son-Bae. Son-Bae has 53% chance of neutralizing Mary (and something similar with anything within blast distance) and a further 23% chance of permanently removing Mary. Give it another two order. Roughly speaking, that's order in-efficient, but for the cost of 3+ orders (say... expected 6 orders) and risking only a Chaiyi you have nearly guaranteed removing a very high priority model that would otherwise risk completely locking you down in a way few other models would be able to. Assuming she's not hiding as IMP-2, in which case, I guess, tap-tap-concede.
All of those are true, and I don't mean to argue that it makes the Pheasant a preferable unit. What I meant is that it might explain the low PH, given that ISS has access to (perhaps) the greatest sensor area for the Weibing to take advantage of.
As I've said, On that case doesn't even work so well. Blackout/Ovbliviom break all comms equipment, just like sniffers. You'll need to measure right and enter Marys CZ on the first move and then plant a sniffer. And that's not even It's best choice. On the right set up scenario, she can Just Inmovilize your Messenger bot right there. and then F2F your weibing trough repeaters with hacking protocols (Yachi and weibing are inside your repeater zone, that sucks). And that numbers (39.25% vs 50.25%, not so once you see her odds, right?) are in case you have the EVO. If you don't have it they drop to (17.25% vs 63%). Then mare if somehow looses it's favourable F2F rolls has to dodge incoming misiles at FIS13 -3...not so bad odds On top of that, how many orders are you going to spend on all that process? 2 to 3 on Yaichi, One on Weibing One on Son-bae+failures, resets...? It's Just easier to use a grenade launcher from a celestial al 8's+3 from 5 en fireteam, a Wuming to 10s+3 of 5 men fireteam or to use a boarding shotgun kanren. That forward observer or the one with the sniffers. And if the enemy puts a friendly miniature next to her It becomes even easier Smart misiles are for factions that have dirty cheap camo FO for taking care of TAGs or Tought things. A FO on the back of one of those, a Surprise FO and they are doomed. Just release misiles at ease. Way better than shooting and shooting a regular HMG. I hope The smart missile launcher strategy doesn't become a thing in Invincible army. There are plenty of other interesting stuff out there (At least the way the rules are right now) Erm... maybe they just wanted to make a cocky clan of bastards with lots of formation that are worhtles and make honor to their name "pheasant". But that doesn't explain why should we use them. Other factions have similar problems with other troops. Mormaer, Sepulchres,... Once yo feed too much in a profile, a lot of things can end up wrong.
Not hard with a 6" MOV. If you don't want to expose your Chaiyi to hacking, then it's hard, 'cause you need to put it's silhouette edge in the 8 to 9" range. That would require Mary to have active turn. You can't ARO a Repeater unit through a different hostile Repeater. That only works on Hackers and Weibing isn't a Hacker. Mary will be left with only Reset as a response. This is pointless without EVO, which is an issue, but with an EVO it's decent odds at no risk. Mary has PH 10. She'll roll on 7 vs 18 (-3 per friendly normal Hacking Device that can afford not to dodge) I gave you the numbers. Minimum 3, expected 5, and additional orders to move the Chaiyi across the table. Celestial Guard have 21% chance of downing Mary. 30% if they manage to get the fireteam across the table intact. Compare this to the 55% of the Son-Bae (assuming the enemy has 1 normal Hacking Device). Doing this will put the Celestial Guard at risk in a forward position and after two or three failed attempts, Mary will likely be outside the +3 range of the Celestial Guard. The question is, how many orders are you willing to spend on this? The orders you need to spend on doing this isn't all that different, but you're potentially exposing a lot more orders for your opponent to pick off next turn and investing a lot more points. For Wu Ming the equation is different on so many levels that it's not a useful comparison to make. You've got several times more points moving, a unit that's designed to knock on doors, supported by heavier weapons, exposed to more hacking, larger footprint, with lower access to smoke for mobility purposes and so on. But most of all, your lists entire punching power (aside from maybe a Rui Shi) is focus right there. A Smart Missile Launcher has 49% chance of defeating a Szalamandra's (or Guijia) Dodge and ARM, this drops to 38% against a Squalos (or a Guijia with a single Hacker doing U-Turn), dropping further the more hackers the enemy has. The expected number of orders you need to spend on getting a TAG like this down is in excess of 7, at which point you may no longer spend orders lobbing Guided Missiles. While this is an acceptable number of orders to kill a TAG, setting this up can also prove difficult since it will likely mean putting the FO at risk, and depend heavily on the position of the TAG. It is not impossible that the TAG will be completely inaccessible to your FOs. Fact of the matter is, Sat-Lock has a high chance of working at low risk and it is extremely difficult to protect your key assets against it. It is by far not a useless tool. Whether Smart Missile Launchers becomes a Thing in IA, I don't know, but this tactic is available to everyone except Tohaa and the Ariadnan factions (who don't have Sat-Lock), and it's particularly cheap in for example Aconticimiento with their high-AVA Fugazi. But yet again, this is a tactical tool and not something to build your list around. This isn't going to solve an opponents entire list, but it might solve a specific problem at next to 0 risk. And really, going back to 1.1. in the list up there, the fact that you have to have an EVO Hacking Device and that this equipment changes the situation so drastically is a bit of shoddy design.
Well, I've re-readed the rule and you are totally right. Hackers can hack on enemy repeaters ZoC, not Enemy's Hacking zone. What has messed me up is the image of hacking through repeaters. Yep, you might expose Your Fireteam But You'll probably are gonna take care of some more enemies or objectives on the way. Plus, after dealing with Mary, you can go after more enemies/objectives, or just take defensive positions. On the other scenario You have taken care of one enemy on what, an average of 5 orders? and you need to begin again the move or expose more troops. Again, yes, it might seem a good strategy with low risks but it's also a poorly efficient one. An Advanced FO does the same on 2-3 orders. A Skirmisher with BS does the same with 2-3 orders... I'm not the kind of player that uses a 5 men IL fireteam recklessly on first turn. Lone troops like skirmishers of Spearheads are more suited for this role. I prefer to use Fireteams on 2nd turn and beyond to pressure the enemy while I have the advantage.
