Hi there. I have a (hopefully) simple question. But let me copy the wiki entry of the Order ExpenditureSequence first: Activation: The Active Player declares which trooper will activate. Order expenditure: The Active Player removes from the table, or otherwise marks as spent, the Order Marker he uses to activate the trooper. Declaration of the First Skill: The Active Player declares the first Short Skill of the Order, or the Entire Order he wants to use. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and places the trooper at the final point of its movement. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player checks which of her troopers can react against the activated trooper, and declares AROs for each of them. If a trooper can declare an ARO but fails to do so, the chance is lost. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and specifies where the trooper would be at the end of its movement. Declaration of the Second Skill: The Active Player declares the second Short Skill of the Order, if applicable. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and places the trooper at the final point of its movement. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player can check whether new AROs are available, and declare those. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and specifies where the trooper would be at the end of its movement. Resolution: Players take measurements, determine MODs, and make Rolls. Effects: Players apply all effects of successful Orders or AROs, and make ARM/BTS Rolls. Conclusion: If necessary, players make Guts Rolls and apply their effects. If I declare an order, which my unit cannot perform, does the Declaration of the skill become Idle? Or is it just in the resolution step that the skill is treated as idle? I ask because the camouflaged state is cancelled upon declaration of a skill other than movement. When the unit cannot perform that skill, it becomes null (treated as idle). However, ammo is spent. Is the declared skill now Idle or does it stay a (let's say) shoot and it is resolved as Idle? That makes a difference because if only the resolution is treated as Idle, the unit loses the Camouflage state.
What Skill are you trying to declare that can't be performed? You need to fulfil the Requirements when declaring it.
You can't declare BS Attack if the target is outside LoF: REQUIREMENTS The user must have LoF towards the target unless the BS Weapon, Special Skill or Equipment used states specifically that it does not require LoF.
In the hypothetical case that you're declaring a legal skill that turns into an Idle; Camo cancellation is triggered on declaration. Example: Camouflaged Zero and Alguacile participates in coordinated order. On second short skill, you declare BS Attack, but only the Alguacile can see the target. Zero counts as having declared the order and loses camouflage but it will become an Idle.
That is exactly the case in which the rule question occurred. Local people said, the skill is idle and the trooper does not lose the camo state. I disagreed upon that and got a lot of critisism thrown at me.
Here's rules references, with underline emphasis http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Coordinated_Orders Requirements ... All participating troopers must declare and execute the exact same sequence of Skills. ... http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Camouflaged Cancellation A trooper's Camouflaged state is canceled, and its Marker replaced by its model, whenever: The Camouflaged trooper declares a Skill other than Cautious Movement or a Short Movement Skill that does not require a Roll (except Alert). ...
I said the same but they argumented that the skill is not declared because it becomes null due to not meeting the requirements. Even if the coordinated Order says, they count as having shot. The argument base is in the rules: If a unit does not fufill the requirements, the skill has no consequences. (anywhere in the rules regarding orders. I only have the rules in german, so I cannot tell the right wording) So the declaration of the skill becomes "Idle" but only for ARO purposes as BS-Attack. And that is what I cannot argument against.
@Fabbo one of the things thats not clearly stated in that section of the rules and might be helpful for you to know is at what points we can check Line of Fire. A simple reading of the sequence would lead you to believe theres no opportunity to check LoF or Zone of Control until Step 7, Resolution. This isnt quite so, and was clarified by@ IJW in late December; I'll try to find the link. In fact, we can check for extant LoF before declaring an Order, and (presuming a typical Move - ARO - Shoot) we can check again after Step 3 when the active player has estimated their indicated route and destination, then measured to find the actual location for the unit. Again, this also clarified by @psychoticstorm in early January. Thus, afer Step 3, the reactive player knows definitively whether they now have LoF, so that they can declare their ARO appropriatel. Likewise the active player knows whether their move gained the LoF they wanted, and they can declare their second skill appropraitely. They need not fear losing it because - as in your example, they mistakenly declared a BS attack only to discover it wasnt vaild.
Not quite. The skills counts as having been performed for ARO purposes, but the skill becomes Idle. While Idle doesn't take a model out of Camo, that doesn't matter because Camo cancellation only cares about what the trooper attempts to do (which in game terms is "declares"). I do not speak German sufficiently well to help you sort it out in the language you guys play by, but there is a possibility that the German rules uses language logic that has a different outcome. Edit: turns out that's not entirely true. I won't be able to write this in German, but the logic is exactly the same in German as in English. Getarnt is cancelled by "Die getarnte Einheit eine andere Fertigkeit oder ARB als eine Kurze Bewegungsfertigkeit, die keinen Wurf erfordert, oder eine Vorsichtige Bewegung ansagt." and on page 148 we read under Voraussetzung that "Alle teilnehmenden Einheiten müssen die exakt gleiche Reihen-folge von Fertigkeiten ansagen und durchführen." The line you refer to under Effekte is in other words not relevant, because the only way it will become relevant is by declaring, in this case, BS Attack/BF-Angriff.
We're talking LOF again are we? Thought the agreement was not to do that @Wolf @psychoticstorm are we free to begin this discussion again? @Plebian certainly has expressed it quite eloquently on White noise and I wouldnt mind the opportunity to paraphrase his points.
@Wolf this has nothing to do with checking LoF, it's about one member of a Coordinated Order not being able to complete a Skill. @Fabbo unfortunately (for them), the BS Attack has already been declared, immediately revealing the marker. In particular, Idle doesn't change the Skill that was declared, but changes the Skill that's performed: The trooper is also considered to perform an Idle when he has declared a Skill not allowed by the rules. In such situation, the ammunition of Disposable weapons or pieces of Equipment is spent, too. My emphasis. The BS Attack Skill declaration isn't retroactively changed into declaring the Idle Skill.
First of all: Thank you for your patient help. I am a quite new player and apreciate help whenever I get it. I completely agree that declaring and resolving a skill are two different things and the declaration itself (independant of the outcome) reveals the unit.
As a german i just want to confirm that this is 100% correct. The exact same line of reasoning works in the german language and in the german rulebook. (even though i nearly only use the english rules myself) Also @Fabbo the rules are completely free online so you do have access to the english rules whenver in doubt. You can either download the pdf for free or just check the wiki: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Main_Page I highly advise to look into the english wiki whenever in doubt because there you can see the appropiate FAQuestions on the bottom of the page. These often can clear up common issues. (not this time though just for reference) I use that so much i don't even know if the FAQ exists in german.
