Sixth Sense and CC in the rear arc/Zero Vis Zone

From the sixth sense entry on the wiki:

• Allows the user to respond with a Face to Face Roll to Attacks (and only Attacks) directed at him by an enemy inside his Zone of Control, even without LoF to the attacker and regardless the facing of the user.

Wouldn't that mean that yes, you can fire?

 

As far as I'm aware, the 'regardless of the facing' wording would let the Sixth Sense trooper shoot, confirmed by Solkan's answer being marked as correct.

However the discussion on Facebook that prompted this question was about responding to a CC Attack with a BS Attack while within a Zero Visibility Zone. That's a much less clear situation that hasn't been answered fully. I think it wouldn't allow a BS Attack ARO because it's only BS Attacks through smoke that trigger BS Attack reactions.

 

This one has been around before.

I think the answer is no as the CC is not declared out of lof for SS to trigger.

 

Read the first bullet point of SSL1 again.

 

Yes, we've had this discussion before and that's definitely @ijw 's opinion. But the person I was quoting was referring to merely approaching from behind, by my understanding.

 

Read it. Many times. Try not to be 'that guy' at least once eh?

If you were referring to me as the person you were quoting you were wrong. I was referring to rear facing in smoke as per the discussion. Did you read the title of the topic?

 

So we agree? Great! Why are we arguing?

 

I, too, am of the opinion that CC in smoke does not allow a model with Sixth Sense to ARO with a BS weapon.

 

@ijw has already made his opinion known, so w/e, but I think that only makes sense if you ignore the "without LoF" part of SS. @ijw made the point that this would imply that troopers in that position could return fire if they were being hit by a guided missile from behind a wall, for example, which is why he didn't support this interpretation. I think that's the only way to read it; in light of CB making silly rulings like the Shock/NWI interaction recently, they apparently want their rules to be read very literally, even when it goes against intent.

 

I strongly disagree with any reading of Sixth Sense that allows you to shoot through terrain features. And I don't think there's any way to read it that allows you to shoot in ARO to CC attacks from within smoke that doesn't also allow you to shoot in ARO to attacks from the other sides of buildings.

If such an FAQ/errata comes down from CB I'll try to accept it with grace and dignity, but until then I'm not going to make or support any rulings that produce such obviously bad outcomes.

 

I think you're right here. The problem is CB didn't really differentiate between Total Cover and no LoF - the confusion as to whether or not a model who's entire silhouette is obscured from view by other models allows return fire, as well, fits under here.

 

So if hacker makes a surprise hacking attack from marker state from inside smoke, the target can respond with a bs attack as long as he has lof? But can't respond with a bs attack if the hacking is done normally?

 

Why would marker state make any difference?

 

hacking attack from marker state is a surprise hacking attack which also counts as a surprise attack which is a bs attack.

I thought this was the reasoning that allowed surprise attacks with long skill bs attacks.

 

Off topic, but I thought it was deemed "silly" precisely because it had no basis in RAW, but rather was a "compromise option"? Granted, I didn't follow that discussion at the time.

I do get why they encourage literal approach. It's easier to get players onto the same page when it comes to rules this way, as opposed to encouraging guessing intentions behind every rule and coming up with RAI for everything. Playerbase aggregation and all that.

Oh, and this thread made me learn that two bullets under requirements for Total Cover are either/or. Things got messy in my head again.

 

Sorry to necro an old thread but this came up in a game last week and I was asked to make a ruling on it.
After searching the old forums I don't feel like I am much closer to an answer so as opposed to a new thread I thought I would just continue this discussion.

When faced with a question like this I try to work from the most confusing or ridicules possibilities and work backwards.
As I understand it there are not any rules about "line of effect", only line of fire correct?
As such it seams like RAW if I shoot a smart missile or a speculative attack at someone with sixth sense lv2 then they are free to ARO with a BS attack.
Are there any rules that prevent this?

Lets say my Ninja moves around a corner and in to base to base with your 6th sense trooper.
The trooper delays his aro, then the Ninja attacks. We are now faced with a timing issue. Is the 6th sense trooper assumed to not need LoF for the full order or only the part where he was attacked and 6th sense triggered? Generally (but not in all things) everything retroactively happens at the same time you can make a BS attack from even before the Ninja came around the corner and maybe do odd things with a shotgun impact templet.

Example 2
A 5 man link team is lined up on a wall next to a corner. A Fiday moves just a bit around that corner so that only the first member of the link can see him and asks for ARO's.
The linkteam delays and the Fiday shotguns the first guy with an impact template.
I assume now that all five of them can respond with a BS attack even if the corner or the other members of the Linkteam are in the way?
Also amusingly, if they opt to shoot the Fiday back when he had total cover they can ignore that because they don't need line of sight and that is all that total cover offers, but if they attacked when the Fiday came around the corner with partial cover then they would still suffer the -3 to BS attack.

This can't be correct is it?

 

You can't shoot models that are in total cover unless you are using speculative fire to lob a grenade (and that can't be done in ARO).

I personally believe that all Sixth Sense does in this case is grant you temporary 360 degree LoF against the attacking model.