I don't see how, either they can have comps and equipment or they can't. In that case you detect witch one is the real in case of a stealthy trooper possessing holoproj. Lvl 2+ as soon as he enters a ZoC. (I'm pretty sure that a stealthy trooper have to declare not using it, he can't just say you have a ZoC aro.)
Because most equipment and skills are used during the resolution steps of the order. So the RAW being "before the resolution steps, your holoechoes look like it has the equipment/skills but you use true mod (no equipment for false holoechoes or real equipment for true holoechoe)" It get messier when the equipment affect the ability to ARO. You look like you have stealth but don't really have it. I would logically say that you can say you are stealthy as long as you are not in someone ZoC/Hacking Area, then the false Holoechoes will be detected and AROed but RAW are not clear on that.
No, Stealth is messier because the consensus is 'we don't know which of the following is correct' (I have my own opinion): Scenario 1: Player: 'I move these three Holoecho's into ZOC of your Hacker, all three appear to be Hackable by programmes that target HI. These 2 Holoechoe's don't use Stealth but this 1 does.' Opponent: 'Well, I've been granted an ARO by the non-stealthed ones; I declare Gotcha! and target the one which didn't use Stealth.' Player: 'That's fair enough; he's an active model and otherwise meets the requirements of Gotha, so he's a legal target of the ARO.' Scenario 2: Player: 'I move these three Holoecho's into ZOC of your Hacker, all three appear to be Hackable by programmes that target HI. These 2 Holoechoe's don't use Stealth this 1 does.' Opponent: 'Well, I've been granted an ARO by the non-stealthed ones; I declare Gotcha! and target the one use didn't use Stealth.' Player: 'No sorry, you can't do that: you can only target the specific model which granted the ARO not any active trooper that fulfills all the requirements of the declaration. That's just how it is.'
Well, sorry for the resurrection but after our little exchange with @ijw I would like to have clarity in all this thing. So @ijw, my question is : why decoys copy and use the MOV values of the bearer and copy the Hackable characteristic? It is said nowhere what exactly can do a decoy except that it copies the Order execution if it isn't Alert or Activate. You discover that if the bearer is Hackable, the decoys are too, in the two last exampes only. So for what is said, there is nothing in the rules that says until where I have to stop my decoys. The question is not on what but how! Common sense would suggests that it uses the same MOV values than the bearer but well, common sense and rules don't work well together. I point this in particular because you said that there is nothing in the rules that tells decoys use automatic equipements and special skills. You're right, the problem is that it is the case for the MOV values too (Hackable characteristic is said as being copied but it is in examples so this could have been made way more clearer by putting a bullet in "Effects"). So, what I would like to know is why something is used an not another one while any of them is mentionned? By answering this only by using what is said in the Holoechoes state and the Holoprojector L2 and 3 ONLY, I will have maybe more question about interactions, or not. I don't want to break the rules or anything. I just want to know exactly what I can do or not by playing or facing a Holoprojector L2+ bearer while not cheating my opponent. But, please, be clear, argumented and logic in your demonstration. Things like feelings and guess won't answer to my question, I'm afraid. Thanks a lot
The way I see it, holoechoes says : "The bearer of Holoprojector L2 and his holographic decoys act the same time, performing exactly the same Order declared." So if the true trooper perform a move with a MOV value of 15cm, then the holoechoes perform the exact same order : a move with a MOV value of 15 cm
And I don't see why because my questions remain even I only use the level 2 or 3 without disguising the trooper. So, yes, prove it without using Holo L1, please. @Arkhos, I see what you're saying but in this case, but if it is really this, there is nothing that suggests this when you see the same wording for G : Synch with troopers with different MOV values.
I just want to know how to play any Holo L2 or 3 that has some Skills or Equipements that could affect ARO declaration, ARO resolution and MODs. And not only by giving me your feeling and guessing. Holo2 with Stealth isn't the KotHS only thing. Kanren Hacker is in the same spot. I just said first that I would like those rules written more clearer by CB and then, @ijw offered me to explain it for good. This is why I ask to don't use the part about Holo 1 because this resolve nothing to me. My problems are only about the Holoechoes state rule, not the Holoprojector rule. For the rest, I will see after this first problem.
I'm pretty sure that we will have to put the same restriction on Fireteams, G: Synch and G: Servant then. But I don't think there's something that suggests we must play it like this if we go by examples.
Well, the problem is I would like to know for generic use, not only examples. But, let's start easy with movement : A Kotail uses its Super Jump. Are the Holoechoes authorised to use Super Jump too? I would say no because, as it was stated earlier in this topic, they don't have the skill and so, like the Auxbot of the Seraph, they should do Idle instead. Am I right?
The Holoechoes will Super Jump too. They perform exactly the same order as the real model with a few exceptions. See the second bullet point in Effects: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Holoecho
Basically the way I reconcile it is: If it's a Declaration (ie Short Skill jump) the Holoechoes perform it. If it's a modifier to a Declaration (Stealth) they don't benefit from it. But yeah "Move with Stealth" not actually functioning is weird (to me).
Nah! That is just not enough to me, considering what was said before. You can declare Super Jump with the Seraph, this will not give the Super Jump to the Auxbot. So, if we consider the Holoechoes have no skills, they can't Super Jump and Idle instead. It is not logical when you put together what was said earlier in the 3 pages of the 4 long this thread is and the case of G: Servant and G: Synchronised which have the same ruling about Order declaration. @inane.imp : what I think is weird is that you use your feelings on a rule that should be clear. I want a logical and clear explanation of what I can do and what I can't. This is the reason I called this "the Holo L2+ mess". Because, in fact, we don't know that much what we can do if a trooper with Holo 2+ has special skills or automatic Equipement. I'm sorry to be annoying, but you can't say : "This works and this not because, I don't know, it would be weird if not, even if it isn't said so..." You see, I was told that if you begin to admit a lot of undemonstrated things in math, your incoming demonstration will be easy to break down. And I would like to play any Holo 2+ bearer without problems with my opponent and the TO. I can accept that Holoechoes don't benefit from skills, it is fine to me but what I want is logic (I know I begin to be boring with logic but, you know, professional deformation). But maybe @ijw could enlight our mind about this. But I would like this to be clear and logical.
Huh... IIRC there is a difference: Holoecho performs the same Skill. G:S declares the same Skill. Declaration becomes Idle when unit is unable to carry out declared Skill. But when it comes to Holo we don't do this because we are directly told to perform the same stuff real trooper does.
The reason the Auxbot doesn't get to jump is the 4th bullet point in the effects of G: Synchronized: If either trooper is not able to perform one of either Short Skills of the Order, then that trooper will perform only the Short Skill he is able to perform, and the other Short Skill will be an Idle. While the other trooper will perform his complete Order normally. Whereas in the Holoechoes State, the only exceptions are to Activate and Alert.
