So about this "points formula"

Why don’t they belong?

 

Because they have a unit with WIP15. :)

 

That’s ok, she’s also BS15!

 

Military Orders should be a NA2 Sectoral with a number of PanO troops like StarCo.

PanO should be almost entirely a SEA/India/South America capitalist military themed faction with lots of focus on special forces, high technology, ultra-covert Hexahedron agents, operations in wilderness environments like Jungle, Tropical, Mountain etc terrain.

And they do have some troops like this. Bagh-Mari, Hexas, Locusts, Akalis, Kamau... but they have a lot of tat. Ditch the European element and let the MOs stand as their own thing, introduce stuff that isn't just straight shooting. Why don't PanO paramedica have medjectors and their HI automedikits? Why don't they have Auxbots everywhere? Why don't they have Repeaters on their infiltrators, monomines, E/M LGLs, Breaker Rifles...

 

Because PanO can't have nice things.

Seriously, though - the changes we would like to see would require some rebalancing, so we wouldn't end with an OP faction. Removing MO would be a step in a good direction (leaving single units, like BFs and Montesas, in PanO sectorials), freeing a lot of design space. And with MO in NA2 it could get rebalanced properly as well, without affecting PanO.

 

I guess you missed the End Times then...

 

I guess you missed all my posts then... and here i thought we were talking about 2018. But thank you for acknowledging Uprising is a fuckup on par with the End Times

 

I think you people must realise that there are people with different opinion than yours, there are people who really like PanO been mechanically great, there are people who think PanO is boring, both are valid point of views and should be respected.

As it has been mentioned multiple times we look and take feedback, we cannot reply to everything and taking in feedback requires time to materialise, things do not happen in isolation they need time and time slots to happen.

Personally now, MO have no place in NA2, they are quite "independent" and could function as an "independent" formation, but their function and fluff are so tied in PanO that even outside of the PanO military complex they would practically function as part of PanO.

 

While I agree to an extent, I can certainly see the point that they drop right out of vanilla PanO pretty easily (even the Seraph, and I'd only ever consider that TAG in vanilla, never MO). Leaving the Black Friar in NCA as a Neo Vatican representative, just like the various Aleph units are representations of Aleph's involvement with specific sectorials. Montessa staying in SAA and presumably Hospitaler showing up in Svalarheima again does more than enough for flavour purposes and fills out capability gaps. It'd both clear out vanilla for more interesting HI options and enable an MO rebalance without screwing up the overall vanilla list.

 

**cough**StarCough**cough**StarCough**cough**

 

Fluff can always be changed. Gameplay and balance considerations should have priority. And the fact is that having three sectorials and fourth in the works is pretty restricting, and this isn't only a PanO problem. Look at Nomad discussion about Brigadas vs. Hollow Men, for example. Or vanilla Ariadna, where multiple units sit on the bench.

In the end the amount of units in faction means that either they start to get on each other toes, and those better constructed win over others (which will have their use mostly in sectorials, and even that not always - cue our entire discussion about knights), or a rebalancing will come and start to push some of them into different niches. And this is what hurts PanO, because the designers seem to be unable to change their view about the faction, and rework its strength and weaknesses. That's my opinion and the reason I'm talking about lack of passion and creativity when it comes to PanO design.

 

Personally im with storm, Id hate to see MO go. They arent anymore of a ball and chain to PanO design thatn CB lets them, and given the massive internal issues with the sectorial I dont think most of the units in it are really in danger of skewing Vanilla if vanilla were to get other options.

Joan is never going to be more dangerous in a list than wallace, even if you gave her access to a 6 pt irreg warband. simply because of the way the rest of the sectorial would go together.

 

Your statement I quoted, doesnt make a lot of sense, if you only take 2018 into account.
And what GW did in 2015 and prior was such a big middle finger to their playerbase. CB didnt bring out 5 expansion books, genarate a lot of hype let their customer buy huge armies only to tell them not even a year later, that the game as a whole is now discontinued.
Compared to that, Uprising was almost ok.

 

Here's the problem; getting a new sectorial and new options won't fix the issues with MO for those who want to play the sectorial. As was said before: it'd would be nice to get the old toys fixed before getting new ones.

 

StarCo, the Free company of the Star is an independent entity that draws from Corregidor personnel not an independent entity grafted in the Nomads infrastructure, they can seek jobs that would conflict Nomads interests, you will have a really hard time selling me MO functioning in the same premise the NA2 minor powers work, or be part of them pushing some agenda.

 

I have to reread uprising then. Last i remembered StarCo was more or less indirectly founded by Corregidor so they could take jobs that do not fit in the public politics of the Nomads. Back to the fluff book for me.

 

StarCo is according to fluff a mercenary organisation that allows Nomads to:
a) earn money from organisations/sources which could not normally employ Nomads directly,
b) perform origin-deniable operations.
It is controlled by a person essentially nominated by Nomad Nation.

While MO would have to go into NA2 in quite a different way, try this explanation:
NeoVatican due to a (trigger event) decides to pursue a more independent policy from mainstream PanO, thus removing its forces from direct participation in PanO military and becoming an affiliated troops.

For example, other PanO corps manage to push through a decree to change resurrection licenses away from NeoVatican monopoly and make them available via multiple channels. This in turn makes NV pull its troops from regular PanO military to "prevent exploitation of religiously affiliated members as cannon fodder by PanO High Command" or some similar bullshit. They still cooperate, but are no longer fully integrated. Some units, usually ones for which mainstream military provides significant amount of training and/or equipment (such as Swiss Guard), stay under normal military while more religious units are separated out.

Or, another, Neo Vatican proclaims a crusade on Dawn to liberate something or other; however, Ariadna protests imperialism in O12 and backed by Yu Jing and other smaller nations force through O12 decree condemning PanO. PanO and NV backed into corner between geopolitics on one hand and problems of papal infallibility on the other end up removing MO into its own "army" thus absolving PanO from the crusade problem.

 

I wouldn't even expect them to go, keep them under PanO as they're so intrinsically linked to the hyperpower. But if their unique units were removed from vanilla there'd be so much more room for design. Currently 10 of the 14 HI in vanilla are knights or Joan. I want to see expanded "Guard" HI (Life Guards for Varuna etc.), I want the Guarda to use the mobility armour so he can actually keep pace with his Auxbot, I want the ORC chassis to showcase the tech of PanO (not just all in one profile, but different units) packing Holoprojectors, Feuerbachs, even Heavy Shotguns on an S2.

 

You can also do this with SWC tax. CB already did it on TO Order Sergeants. With those SWC costs they are totally undesirable to pick in Vanilla. (especially with Croc Men available)