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The power level of Vanilla YJ post Uprising

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Zewrath, Jun 11, 2018.

  1. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    By far my favourite profile! Especially when you get close "Oh you shoot back? Here's 3 nanopulsers" *trollface*

    Funny you should say that, because I just had a long talk with my buddy about how I felt that ISS is arguably the most well executed and complete sectorial in the game. After a year and a half of intense list building and playing the ISS sectorial, I still find myself come up with totally new and varied lists!
     
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  2. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Crane delivery into CC is "if you stand where I can see you I'll shoot you in the face, if you hide I'll walk around the corner and spanner your face in." This is the case with many CC troops, and it works pretty well. Cranes are very effective and capable, especially the hacker, a very broadly capable trooper which gets a massive points discount for some reason I can't quite discern (but don't mind, just saying).
     
  3. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Loss of sensor and x-visor. Quite a big drawback as both these skills and equipment are part the reason he’s so good.
     
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  4. Maksimas

    Maksimas Heavy Infantry Addict Maxim

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    He does get an AHD with a respectable WIP 14 in exchange. Which does allow him to make sure whatever he is going to spanner from around a corner will sit still or whomever he wishes to shoot will be more co-operative in being hit.
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Exactly my thought as well. The CC prowess is a very large cost on Cranes that is almost never worth using.
    How do you feel the mercenaries fit in now a days? While useful, particularly Ashcroft and the ABH feel a bit like unnecessary bloat - more like a bat that people use in discussions against ISS than it is an actual asset.
     
  6. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Well, as I said in the OP, we are almost entirely screwed with a Datatracker for Vanilla, if we hadn't had the Crane dude. Mostly because of Looting and Sabotage and I mostly enjoy his CC in an indirect manner. Due to his CC, he's almost entirely immune to assassins, as no one wants to jump on a guy with sixth sense and MA3 and then there's also the stealth, which is awesome for walking past repeaters or performing cautious inside people's ZoC. There's also those rare instances where something annoying with ODD/TO is in suppression fire, so popping smoke with the link he's with is almost always preferable, so you can either CC or ignore the person, although admittedly that rarely comes up.

    As for the mercenaries I'm afraid that I'm totally biased on that one. I've only ever used Ashcroft hunting party once and the Duo bloke I brought with her rolled ODD with his Spitfire, which made him a monster for his points, so I can't imagine my situation was representative for the general usage.
    Occasionally I do still bring Father Sforza but that's mostly for shell games but he almost never disappoint me, when ever I bring him that is.
    The CSU are totally broken in ISS IMO. Now that they have access to the 12 point specialist profile, I don't see a reason to not bring 1-2 of them. Personally I feel like it was a mistake to let them outside of NCA as they are too good to fill out Celestial Guards that isn't either in a link or a lone hacker, as well as the fact that they are insanely good for DZ defending, especially when you drop them in a corner to really milk the sixth sense.
    Major Lunah (if she counts) has always been a coin toss for me. Either she is garbage performance or she's been fantastic, she does fill out a long range ARO role, which YJ lacks.

    As for Vanilla, I consider mercenaries borderline mandatory. The Krakot is just stupid good for what he does and he's even cheap while having the best kind of impetuous, I can't think of a single negative thing to say about him and I never make a vanilla list without 1-2 of him.
    The ABH is decent because of the cheap sniper that doesn't have the MSR SWC tax, even if they can perform a bit random, I've been experimenting a bit with the sniper to see if it can replace the points I usually reserved for a Raiden.
    I'm also considering to take Le Muet in the future of my Vanilla lists as I've simply given up on having anything YJ in ARO, except for the Warcor or TR/FP REM.
     
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  7. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    When you're facing an opposing HI link, chewing through them one by one with CC in smoke is a lot less risky than being in a short range shootout. Same goes for facing TAGs. I'd really like to find out how good it is against pokemon-covered Tohaa too.
     
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  8. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    The Crane is starting on 25% chance to crit, and that's only going to go up as you get successive Fireteam members involved.

    In general, once you're within 4" the Crane is on substantially better odds in CC than with shooting, even when comparing full Fireteam shooting bonuses to no Fireteam bonuses in CC - the exception being massed Nanopulser shots if you're prepared to take the unopposed reaction shot.
     
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  9. Maksimas

    Maksimas Heavy Infantry Addict Maxim

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    Man, I really feel like I should get a Crane now.
    Seems like a real bloody useful bloke to have around. Maybe not as lethal as an HMG Hsien, but... sounds pretty good if you let him loose in the midfield.
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Sforza has always been good and thematic for me. He's the only Bounty Hunter that kind of performs like a Bounty Hunter, IMO, and his stats are a bargain for 25 points. I'm less enthralled with the ABH, however, they're decent and useful but compared to the in-house options or CSU I don't see a reason for them to be in there any longer, while the Registered versions of ABH and Miranda in general are just... it's such a shame the duo is mandatory, 'cause the RBH is the one I could see myself taking a lot.
    As it is, I see people who don't play ISS gripe a lot about the RBH and Registered Miranda a lot more than I see people mention they actually play her.

    Looking at numbers;
    Vs Szalamandra, you are better off shooting with a Multi Rifle at 8-16" range* from cover than getting into melee with the Szalamandra (you need 1+ other troopers to get better than a 5-man Multi Rifle or Spitfire)
    Vs Riot Grrls (5-man), you are better off cutting them up in melee than shooting at them from 8-16", but the risk isn't very high shooting them
    Versus both of these targets, shooting isn't low chance. Both have over 60% chance of wounding and less than 15% risk of taking a wound/IMM-2. Melee wounding chance only really reaches 85%+ when you get friends to help you out.

    So the question is; how often it's worth the 3+ orders just getting close enough to apply sword? Perhaps more importantly; how often does this mean you increase versus decrease your chances of completing scenario? 'cause overspending can totally wreck your game, even if it is successful, and overspending is a real risk when your... attack bubble... is 0" large.

    * This gives Szally better range band, but it also means you don't run the 50-50 risk that is face-tanking a heavy flamer. Of course, this is also assuming that the Szally does get cover, which is no guarantee at this range.
     
    #70 Mahtamori, Jun 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
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  11. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Get the shotgun, no I'm serious! I've started going on the path of insanity with limited insertion lists, where the Crane + 4 CG's is too cheap. I've started bringing 2-3 of them in the same link and the boarding shotgun dude is absolutely hillarious to use. I started using him for when I usually peak out of corners, when the enemy don't cover anyways, then dropping 3 template shots with BS22 is memeworthy.
     
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  12. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I'm absolutely loving Miranda and her duo with her Bounty Hunter partner with boarding shotgun. Many times I just move her up and put her in suppression. I totally locked down a Kiesotsu link with that because she was -12 to be shot at!. That's why I always take the combi over the BS. That's also what her partner is for. I also love rolling on the Booty chart. One time the partner got a motor cycle and used it to roll up on guys and hit them with the BS at +6 range! The sniper Irregular hunter got ODD! I did a tournament with almost all bounty hunters and non-ISS and it totally threw people off expecting the usual.

    [​IMG] Imperial Service
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] BOUNTY HUNTER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] MIRANDA ASHCROFT Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0 | 24)
    [​IMG] BOUNTY HUNTER Sniper Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 19)
    [​IMG] SFORZA Viral Rifle + Adhesive Launcher, Nanopulser / Heavy Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 25)
    [​IMG] CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    [​IMG] CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    [​IMG] SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)
    [​IMG] RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20)
    [​IMG] DAKINI Tacbot Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4
    [​IMG] CELESTIAL GUARD Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    [​IMG] HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    [​IMG] GARUDA Tacbot Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 28)
    [​IMG] NINJA Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW, Knife. (0.5 | 40)

    4.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    #72 Space Ranger, Jun 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
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  13. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    The BSG Crane is great, but even there the full Fireteam bonuses for shooting only take him up level with the Crane by himself in CC. As soon as there is Mimetism or better on the target, or get someone else from the Fireteam into CC, CC is better than shooting.
     
  14. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Yeeeeah but the main contention here is the term 'better'. Going into B2B with several models usually requires several order expenditures in the form of popping smoke, then move the Crane + additional dudes in optimal positioning to benefit from gang up and THEN gang up on the target, who might just realise that he can't win in CC anways, so he might as well take a swing on the helpless CG, which means you risk losing your full link. Compare that to just start pumping out shots from the beginning. :/
     
  15. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Just did the 3 Crane+2 Celestial on the weekend and loved them! BS Crane is great also because he still has Sensor and X-Visor! They think you are at a bad range and I say no that -3 os zero and, oh ya, +3 for the link.

    [​IMG] Imperial Service
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5
    [​IMG] CRANE IMPERIAL AGENT (Sensor, X Visor) Boarding Shotgun, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 47)
    [​IMG] CRANE IMPERIAL AGENT Lieutenant (X Visor) Spitfire, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 54)
    [​IMG] CRANE IMPERIAL AGENT Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 53)
    [​IMG] CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
    [​IMG] CELESTIAL GUARD (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)

    3 SWC | 180 Points

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  16. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Ganging up would mainly be for TAGs, super-elite HI or similar, where losing a CG in return for Normal Rolls from the Crane is going to be an exceptionally good trade. :-)

    And note that I'm comparing the Crane shooting from cover to the Crane walking into CC in the open, without any smoke use at all. It's very easy to underestimate how good his CC abilities are...
     
  17. st3ncil

    st3ncil Member

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    Too bad this isn't a option in vanilla Yu jing.
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I've ran a few simulations while watching this conversation, I'd say you're understating his shooting abilities. Against most hard targets I've ran, you'd need cover of smoke (to remove their shooting ability) to increase odds beyond what a Crane can do with their gun. Particularly if we're talking about the shotgun. Against really hard targets, you need to be close enough to get a second team member base to base.

    A solo Crane or a Crane who's lost a team member (a very real risk considering the liability that is relying on Celestial Guards - especially since Xi is currently unavailable) it is probably very different calculation.
     
  19. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    True, sorry for not keeping to the original subject.

    But I don't think that entirely cuts out the Crane from Vanilla. He can still be a good viable option.

    On using Bounty Hunters in Vanilla, I still like them if i have the points. Especially the sniper. But really I love to take "Not Sun Tze" Le Muet.
     
  20. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Out of curiosity, what targets were you choosing?
     
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