Raoul is a NBW AD Trooper as a Rasyats. CC AD isn't an unfilled niche. Also, no way is AD HI getting Mimmetism. Agree though Domaru Statline (but not equipment) would be interesting for AD. I'd also expect it to lose the Fury.
@Triumph what warbands besides Shaolin and Myrmidons would be able to shit on a CC-oriented HI? Muttawiah is not an acceptable answer, they shit on everyone and everything that aren't Morat or Bolts. I kept the CC level low simply out of concern for points running away, though optimising it for points concerns I'd probably go for Domaru-level CC and then 2 SMGs or similar for lethal complementing weapon to the non-lethal support weapons. @Furiat @inane.imp I wasn't aware of Ekdromoi, but have you got any comments on topic? Or do you mean that what I presented doesn't qualify as CC-monster in comparison to other CC troops? @Section9 Yeah, Mimetism tends to be 3 points (when it's not 1 point). Mostly the draft design I put forward aims at giving it disabling weapons rather than the standard make up of BSG->Combi->Spitfire. Idea is disable using Stun or glue or E/M and then go in for that PH17 DA kill. Fury isn't a bad idea for a troop like this, 'cause it will need the points reduction. It's just a shame there's no DTW glue gun :p Small note, but with Shang-ji as base statline it'll have unusually high PH for landing when using AD4.
Well, it'll either end up a CC AD HI, or it'll end up a really solid gunfighting AD HI. It being an AD HI is already something that would be completely unique to us, from what I know. Kinda like the Daofei: nobody else can claim to have an infiltrating camo HI, now can they? Honestly, if the AD HI went down the gunfighting route, seeing any level of Full Auto would be rather interesting, and fitting, since certainly when dropping into a hot combat zone being able to put out as many bullets as possible would be beneficial in such a high intensity combat zone. Would also serve as an actual interesting alternative to everybodys favorite band-aid Mimetism too. And some more interesting weapon options like the Red Fury or whatever-that-new-weapon-called-a-Fusil-is that Tunguska is getting.
Monks, Myrmidons, Daturazi, Makauls, Jaguars, Massacre, Morlocks, anything remotely Japanese that behaves like a SK/WB model. Even something as shitty at Kaysem Beg has a 36% chance to stick a wound on your Shooting Star while the Shooting Star has only 49% odds on sticking one back. Last thing you want to do is spend 50pts on a model and risk it on swingy close combat like that. The JSA stuff felt legit in CC because they stacked mods and rules to make their CC hits a relatively sure fire thing. CC22 and MA2 is fairly shit territory for a "CC specialist". That's literally Morlock stats and their primary job is to shoot chain rifles at shit and throw smoke. If you're gonna pay points for rules that involve punching shit on a non expendable model you should actually make them worthwhile not stop halfway. Otherwise we'd be better off with designing a Tiger Soldier+ edition.
Yeah, that does sound like it'd step into ''Better than regular dudes at CC, but too little CC to be a reliable option.'' territory.
Yes, the last thing we want is to further propagate the pointlessness of YJ's CC tax on a faction that is decidedly actually pretty garbage at CC post Uprising. Paying it on Zhanshi alone is irritating enough as it is. Either make them top of the line Kung Fu masters capable of tackling JSA's Cobra Kai, or don't bother.
*sigh* While your content isn't exactly wrong, it does beg a fairly huge "So what?". Your conclusion is questionable and your analysis isn't even there while your argumentative style is oddly aggressive. There's *lots* of units in this game that aren't Achilles, but still manages to be both more expensive and have a harder time avoiding the list you enumerated. As with everything, the key is to avoid unnecessary risks, and the answer to nearly all items on your list is either "deploy elsewhere or shoot them dead". Monks, Datarazi, Jaguars, and Morlocks all die fairly easily to BS 13. Tanko are just about the only thing in JSA that behaves like WB and the biggest issue on the list, but even so good luck designing something that can handle Tanko Haris that doesn't use smoke or E/M grenades or Stun Grenades (which I did suggest as an option) to do it. Which leaves Myrmidons and the numerous melee SK that's out to backstab you, but that's what you've got Rui Shi for. Not to mention that maybe you shouldn't land this unit that close to where a Tanko or Achilles is, but aim for weaker units and stack your advantages with other troops against said targets. As an important side-note, the point where a unit has a pointless CC tax applied to it varies depending on person talking. I thought I was harsh setting that point to the Hsien's level of competence, but I've never seen anyone but you describe CC value of 22 - with Martial Arts, nonetheless - as "pointless CC tax". (Most Pan-O simply stop at "Montesa doesn't work as a concept" and do not blame the CC prowess)
I'd probably say you're about right on around the upper limit of the CC tax, using the Hsien as the point of reference. Though I'd probably say maybe bumping the CC value up by a point would still be in the taxation range ( Mostly since I believe the thing that adds the most consistency to your CC attacks is breaking past the CC20 mark ( With or without modifiers. ), since having the excess be added as a modifier to the result of your dice roll is a pretty big deal, expanding the crit window and shrinking the enemy window for successful rolls down to crits. ). Still, I must say, even though it's quite a tax... having shanked a Speculo Killer with a Hsien does feel rather good, especially since said Speculo Killer was surprise attacking too.
Come back when you've shanked Shinobu with a Line Kazak :p I'd say that Hsien level of CC is useful, but that getting in range to actually make use of it is so hard that I don't understand why it costs the Hsien more points than the MSV2. So CC in this game has issues which boils down to that it's still grossly over-valued and overly powerful in reactive turn... Which is a point of analysis that's sort of missing in your analysis, @Triumph , which is the relationship between shooting versus stabbing, where the proposed unit has slightly better odds of beating a TR HMG REM in melee than shooting it which does beg the question of either "why so good at shooting" or "why melee at all?"
I knife-critted with a Proxy Mk4 a Bandit once... and it was ME running to melee (we tied on the first attempt) on 2 move + shoot (SMG) orders... it was hilarious XD Incidentally, that's why most people wants the B2 in melee: an extra chance to crit.
Not to completely turn it into a melee discussion thread, but the Shinobu incident has happened twice in our local meta and both times against the same JSA player. From my calculations, depending on where you want the resting point to be, defaulting melee to B3 and roughly the same stats as BS for describing competency would increase the less competent units during active turn significantly while competent models would be only marginally better during active turn - while having a Keisotsu with the impetus of active turn be a realistic threat against a Ninja similar to how a Moderator is a realistic threat against Nisse if the Moderator has active turn (edit: when shooting).
I killed Saito Togan with an Odalisque once Distracted him with the goods then shanked his ass *snap snap*
Prior to uprising I did alot of CC through Vanilla. The thing you're missing is that CC is risky as fuck because of the whole 1 dice issue. If you don't have a marker state to surprise attack out of the model either needs to be a tanky beast like Achilles, or Joan, to offset it, or cheap enough that you don't care. What you're proposing is neither. You're designing an CC specialist that is costing about a 6th of your army, with stats not good enough to throw it up the table. Like I pointed out even if you are statistically better than another model at CC, it's not a good enough deal to be merely slightly better when you cost twice as much as them and they still have better than a 1/3 chance of wounding your expensive model. You say you should have to be cautious of pushing this guy up the table aggressively. You're wrong. The whole point is he should be good enough that you don't need to be cautious. Shoving a CC oriented specialist up the table is supposed to do the exact opposite. It's supposed to be a great big neon flashing warning to your opponent of "Hey, do something about this guy or he's gonna really fuck your day sideways." You want them to have to commit big to drop him, not mug him with a Jaguar and watch you struggle to get him out of CC after that. A CC specialist that struggles to effectively outfight chaffe is paying for worthless stats. The problem multiplies when you're talking about a faction that pointlessly pays for this CC Tax everywhere. We don't need more of it. Previously I was willing to stomach it as it was flavouring for the meat. Post uprising the meat is gone, and we're left with nothing but substance less flavour that unfortunately just winds up costing us order efficiency for low to no value. I'm totally onboard for CC specialist, I would actually really like to see that as it would help fill a hole in the faction and rejustify the CC tax everywhere and it would help differentiate the Tigers and Shooting Stars and prevent them from competing with each other. It's just the problem of what you're proposing isn't actually a CC specialist and more just a mediocre jack of all trades. Actual CC is risky biscuits. The value in CC isn't just punching things, it forces an overreaction to deal with it or zones your opponent away from an area of the table, either of which provides an opening elsewhere and reduces enemy order efficiency. You want your opponent to think something like "gee I wanna move up the table but friggin Ajax is sitting behind that building I can't get near him or it's hammer time." Not "Well that MA2 guy is sitting behind the building. I could just throw a couple of Morlocks at him I guess." You can't achieve that hurdle with a mediocre statline, doubly so when it's on an expensive model. They need to be good at their job to provoke that effect on your opponent or cheap enough like a Monk/Morlock that your opponent really just finds it waste of orders and troopers trying to kill them.
It certainly does. :P with this brutal statline, only the most elite cc fighters could match him. I'm a bit worried because if there is one thing that IA doesen't lack right now, is selection of extremaly expensive HI models.
You don't CC other CC dudes unless you have NBW, Ikohl or Surprise Attack. Trying to build something that does that is fraught or extremely expensive. Even Achilles has a 16% chance of getting EM'd by a Morlock. Honestly, I'd go the TM route: CC ability as a defensive stat. You want decent odds of obliterating the Warbands that are sent out to deal with you: CC19 NBW AP CCW, HP. It turns a fight with a Warband into a less reliable solution and prevents Gals just Berzerking you do death. Pushing 2 Warbands into B2B is still an awesome way of dealing with it. BUT you'd still be better off with a Shock + Suppression Fire BS weapon though. Re: CC more generally. The issue is the first 3pts (13-16). There's basically zero value for that change. I'd prefer to see 7, 10, 13, 16, 19 as the only sub 20pt CC stats. Re: High Ph for ADing. Just give them AD:3 rather than 4.
Inferior Combat Jump? My comment on PH is that it is a beneficial side effect rather than a critical feature. CB seems wary of giving AD4 troops PH higher than 12 with 14 nearly or totally unheard of. I like your proposed statline, however, it's closer to what I hope Yu Jing melee evolves into, the yang to JSA's rising yin. Not a fan of AP CCWs though.
Heavy Pistol, AP CCW. It's basically an AP/Shock Dam 14 CCW. HP is awesome for dealing with warbands. Basically I chose that mix because it's solid self defence capabilities but lacks the CC Anti-TAG potential of Rasyats, Raoul or even Ekdromoi. I really wouldn't be surprised if it is Ph14 AD3 though. Note: I really don't think Shooting Stars will be great in CC. I wouldn't expect to see anything more than MA1 CC19, and I'd even find that surprising. Heavy Pistol is plausible though and would be useful.
I don't think they'll be great in CC, either, just airing the idea. However, I do note that Heavy Pistol isn't fully compatible with Natural Born Warrior Mode B, and my biggest problem with Yu Jing post-Treason is with specifically TAG removal. Cleaning up warbands is trivial enough for Yu Jing, but the faction is a bit lacking compared to other factions in terms of sure ways of clearing TAGs and similar fortified targets - that which you'd send Shinobu after. Incidentally I don't find the Kanren to be very effective, even though on paper it has everything that it should need, mostly because it suffers from the classic Yu Jing problem of having terribly mediocre stats where it matters and a lot of gear that makes it expensive - I'm sort of beginning to consider Mono CCW and Martial Arts to be a burden on them and would happily trade those for increased WIP, BS and more exotic guns. What's up with Kanren? Well, they're sort of a light version of what's suggested. P.s. as I've said before, I consider all CC stats under 19 in the current system to be flavour (or, if you will, below 0,5 points in value)
