Had some thoughts in another thread. I think mixed links is going to be a given. I do NOT think we're going to see BS14. I think Mech Deployment would be a good idea. Mk12 or Multi Marksman Rifle (roughly same range bands) probably wouldn't be too expensive. Very much like this. Yes, the suit is improved over both the Zuyong (cheap and simple) and the Wu Ming (extra custom fitting required). But the troops inside are just as important, they're specifically selected to be Shang Ji. However, not even the Daofei have Multiterrain. And they should have it before Shang Ji. Not sure I'd put the doc and engineer in Shang Ji suits (I was leaning towards Zuyong suits but separate AVA), but that's definitely an option. From gameplay, any doctors need to have a good PH (PH equal to the CASEVAC'ed model, so PH14) or baggage in order to be able to CASEVAC heavy Infantry. PH is less critical for an engineer. A couple things that have come up since we last talked on this thread: Invincible Army needs a +1SWC character, they're hurting for SWC with current prices. This would be a character like Kazym Beg, Tarik, or Joan 1. Ideally, they're a character like Oyama is to the basic Domaru, 1-4 points more than the basic trooper with a slight weapons change. They also need a Chain of Command, obvious LT is extremely obvious (almost always the Zuyong Automedikit HMG since it's only 1SWC). Based on the Sectorial Army Kempeitai, CoC is 5 points in N3. Assuming that Zuyong would be eligible for SpecOps, adding a (named) Zuyong SpecOps Dire Foe. This would also be a 1-4pt increase over the base trooper, but with totally different weapons, skills, and equipment. The wearers of these suits are just as important as the suits themselves, fluff says they're chosen specifically to be Shang Ji troopers. So, we can skill them up. We can also play around with weapons and equipment. I'm going to argue that Mech Deploy doesn't take any mods to the suit. As an across-the-board mod to the Shang Ji, I propose adding Veteran L1, Deflector L2, and Mech Deploy to all profiles. This would be ~+5 points across the board. I'm assuming that mixed links like Domaru-Tanko and Wu Ming-SMLbot will definitely happen, something like this (changes from current numbers underlined): Invincible Army mixed link ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 SHÀNG JÍ Chain of Command Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 47) Named Character SHÀNG JÍ Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (+1 | 45) ZÚYǑNG (AutomediKit) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (2 | 39) Named SpecOp ZÚYǑNG MULTI Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 35) SON-BAE Yaókòng Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18) 3.5 SWC | 184 Points The weapons are place-holders for other ideas, but I specifically chose high-point models for this. It should be a couple points cheaper. Related, I'd make Zuyong Gongcheng and Yisheng, each would have separate AVA from the basic Zuyong. I'd probably make them linkable with Zuyong, though it's possible that won't happen (Tokusetsu aren't linkable with Keisotsu). I would give the Zuyong Yisheng Baggage so it can CASEVAC anyone.
I guess I just don't understand the reason to have so many HI who are nearly identical. We probably don't need shang ji, Zuyong, and Wu Ming all at once. Just tweaking stats runs the risk of boosting into Hsien/Crane territory, and giving camo trods on the Dao Fei and Hac Tao. The only niche YJ no longer has covered is a CC HI. I could see it refitting with boarding shotguns/smg style profiles, maybe give it smoke grenades/EM grenades and make them more of a 'blitz' unit. That's the only option I see that doesn't involve making it another 'small tweak' on existing units. The other option is totally refit it into a AD or motorcycle HI. Both of which are potentially busted.
Same reason the Americans had 6 different M4Awhatever Shermans back in WW2, but the differences that matter in game play aren't what suffix number your tank has. The various M4Awhatever numbers refer to either hull construction or engine. The Army attempted to keep the same engines in the same tank battalions, but you could still see M4 (welded hull) in M4A1 (cast hull) units (they both had the same engine). The Marines and Russians got the Diesel-engined Shermans (M4A2). Brits got a lot of M4A4s because they could get the Chrysler multibank engine to work. US Army really loved the M4A3 with the Ford engine. But the differences don't matter down at the sharp end where we play. For Shermans, the game-important details are gun (75mm, 76mm, 105mm, or 17pdr), ammo stowage (dry or wet), and suspension (original VVSS or 'Easy 8' HVSS, Easy 8 gave a smoother ride). Jumbos don't really count as Shermans anymore, and even they have 3 different gun choices! In Infinity: The Wu Ming wear the old line HI suit. It's a pain in the butt, expensive and requires a lot of custom fitting. The Zuyong wear the new line HI suit. It's a lot cheaper to build (cheap enough that it's feasible to give one to every trooper!), doesn't require as much custom fitting. The Shang Ji wear a new, better HI suit. It has better protection than the old Wu Ming suits, and is cheap enough to build that we can still call it a 'line' HI suit. Well, we are apparently getting an AD HI, so that's not going to be the Shang Ji. The Wu Ming is already more of the CQB HI, what with Chain Rifle/SMG and Combi+EMitter loadouts for the 'basic' weapon.
Going back to that idea of adding more ''exotic'' weapons to the Shang Ji as a potential option... How would the idea of doubling down on Combi Rifle+<Insert weapon here profiles>? The fact that the Shang Ji has a Combi Rifle+LFT is kind of one of it's actually unique things compared to other YJ HI from what I know, so... why not add some CR+Light Grenade Launcher or CR+Adhesive Launcher or even perhaps CR+Light Smoke Grenade Launcher profiles to the unit, for example? I don't know how well that'd work as an idea, but... it sounds interesting enough, I suppose.
I’m trying to think of what would make them different and exciting. I think they were always intended on being assault/shock troops. High mobility and hit up close. This is the reason they have the higher (comparably) CC and CCW as well as the Light Flamethrower. I want to amp that up more! TBH I really wanted the Shikami and this might be a way to get the YJ version of it. I also went a bit overboard. MOVE 6-2, CC20, BS13, PH13, ARM4, BTS6, W2, S2, AVA3 Equipment: Tinbot A Skills: Kinematika Level 1, Duo, Hyper Dynamics Level 1, Martial Arts Level 1 SHÀNG JÍ Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | ??) SHÀNG JÍ Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | ??) SHÀNG JÍ Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | ??) SHÀNG JÍ Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | ??) SHÀNG JÍ Vulkan Shotgun / Assault Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | ??) SHÀNG JÍ MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | ??) SHÀNG JÍ Spitfire / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | ??) SHÀNG JÍ Red Fury / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | ??) SHÀNG JÍ SMG + Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | ??) SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | ??) SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | ??) SHÀNG JÍ Paramedic (Medikit) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | ??) SHÀNG JÍ Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | ??) SHÀNG JÍ Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | ??) SHÀNG JÍ Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | ??)
Too many profiles, waaayyy too many profiles. Hyper-Dynamics is one of those skills that is so damned fun on paper, but in game play it's way too expensive that only niche profiles makes it work. I'm ballparking those profiles in the high 50's and up.
Ya I thought so but why not have fun with it! I thought of taking out the HRL. If they are assault troops, why have it? The KHD is also over doing it. Way too powerful for a BTS6 guy with a Tinbot. I've seen worse with the CCW though. Really it's only a change of CCW. Agree on Hyper Dynamics but it seemed fluffy for them. I'd do Super Jump or Cllimb+ but then it's becoming a Shikami. They need their own thing. How about Assault instead? I think the only other troop in the game that has it is the Father Knight?
A simple way to do them attractive are: -Mixed Core: 1 or 2 Shang Ji in a Zuyong Core, with current stats, giving extra role to the Core. -Haris with Advanced Deployment: with SWC increased by 1/0,5 and some points by Adv. Deployment. Nice stuff. -Just Shang Ji with Advanced Deployment: bad idea. -Special Haris with Yan Huo: like Hsien and Zhanging, looks nice. Just by Rules those are easy ways. If we are talking about the Lore: Shang Ji are using the best power armor in YJ, deployed by Land, Sea, Air, Hell and many more places (Adv. deployment). Those armors will be given to veteran and good trained soldiers to do special operations and/or support troops on the battlefield. Edit: Cranes and Wu Ming fit better in ISS than IA. I think Hsien will be present in IA, because they are more like "Field Commanders".
I'm liking the idea of Advanced or Mechanized Deployment that has been floated for Shang-Ji, neatly supports their current equipment and reinforces their role as brawler while making them more attractive in vanilla as well. I'm not up to scratch on what those skills costs, but it's fairly low all things considered. Everything about a sectorial need not be integrated fireteams.
What about making them elite CC HI to fill the gap left by shinobu/oniwaban? Maybe mech deployment, smg, mono, mimetism? I'm still pretty new to the game though but just I thought. I really liked fielding oni and shinobu prior to them leaving :(
They need some kind of forward deploying mechanic and smoke or a marker state to get this role down. Without that they're not that useful, see the Shikami.
I personally like the idea of some mobility advantage. That was their big advantage in N2 after all. Now whether that’s reflected in mechanized/forward deployment or a 6-2 Move, I don’t particularly care, but it’d be a nice thing that sets them apart. I don’t even care if they can’t link (though that seems unlikely).
I don't know if this is too obvious or has come up before, but what about making the same change which previously made the unique and give them 4-6 Move? I don't think there's anything in the game at present which has that.
Oh, wow, that's similar. However, they have CC 13 and the Halqa has no Cube, so I expect that the real cost is closer to +2 since cubes actually costs a fraction of a point. That would make them faster when they came into contact with a sand pit, deep water, or got too close to a reactor. Also, that high total movement is something humans can't get to. You need to be an android or alien to get to those speeds.
What if they made them MOV 4-6 with multi terrain? This would grant them greater maneuverability if they spend their full order moving, and would bring something to the game we have not yet seen without the need to create a new skill for it.
You can't give units a 2nd MOV value that's bigger than their 1st. It would mean they move 10 inches in open ground but 12 inches in difficult terrain, the game falls apart.
