I’ve made a bit of a visual thing to help us understand what some of us are talking about. I'm guessing the price for the Multi-terrain Tigers should be 2pts. less than the Combat Jump. No idea on the Limited Camo version. I'd also take the sniper out of the Combat Jump ones to only be in the Multi-terrain but I left if to be complete. Spoiler: Combat Jump Tiger TIGER SOLDIER - Combat Jump Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) TIGER SOLDIER - Combat Jump Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25) TIGER SOLDIER - Combat Jump MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34) TIGER SOLDIER - Combat Jump Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32) TIGER SOLDIER Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) - Combat Jump Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 33) TIGER SOLDIER Paramedic (MediKit) - Combat Jump Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 29) TIGER SOLDIER Lieutenant - Combat Jump Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 27) Spoiler: Multi-Terrain, Can for Fireteam of up to 5 in Sectoral TIGER SOLDIER - Multi-Terrain Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25) TIGER SOLDIER - Multi-Terrain Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) TIGER SOLDIER - Multi-Terrain MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32) TIGER SOLDIER - Multi-Terrain Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30) TIGER SOLDIER Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) - Multi-Terrain Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 31) TIGER SOLDIER Paramedic (MediKit) - Multi-Terrain Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) TIGER SOLDIER Lieutenant - Multi-Terrain Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 25) Spoiler: Limited Camo TIGER SOLDIER - Limited Camo[ MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | ??) TIGER SOLDIER - Limited Camo[ Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | ??) For the sake of comparison I'm adding the PanO Nisse. The Nisse are obviously more expensive due to having MSV2 in addition to Multi-terrain and Mimetisim. Spoiler: PanO Nisse Comparrison Equipment: Mimetisim, MSV2 NISSE Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30) NISSE HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34) NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34) NISSE Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 38) NISSE Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32) NISSE Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 30)
Tigers without AD:CJ smells like the Nomad Wildcats, in comparison with your suggestion: you would pay 6p for: +1 CC, +1 PH, +1 WIP, +Mimetism, -V: Courage, -6 BTS, -D-Charges.
But they can already not have Combat Jump. As of now, you can take them with Multi-Terrain or Combat Jump. They just can't link. Back in the day you had to write down which you were going to do before the game. This is why they still have Sniper and they used to have an HMG. Yes they are similar to Wildcats but I'd say more similar to the Nisse. BS13, Mimetisim, ARM2. What is being suggested is splitting the Combat Jump from the Multi-terrain to give us Tigers Soldiers that can link.
And overestimating the cost of Multiterrain. And misunderstanding what makes Nisse Nisse: it's the MSV2 not the Mimmetism. Mimmetism is also ridiculously cheap for what it gives you. Wildcats trade CC14, PH11, WIP13, BTS6, D-charges, Courage for CC15, PH12, WIP 14, BTS0, Mimmetism. That's only about 2-3pts different. So absolute worst case they're about 23pts, but realistically closer to 21. It would easily be one of the better defensive cores in the game in a dual MSR build.
If memory serves, MSV2 is 5 points. So deconstructing a Nisse to become a flightless Tiger; -5 MSV2 -3 Light Shotgun -2 or 3 for 1 point of ARM +1 for 1 point of WIP +1 Flamethrower Note on CC: from 14 this value rounds upwards so it shouldn't cost the Tiger anything. = 21 or 22 points. So we're in agreement, inane.imp Specifically I don't think limited camo is a good idea at all. It doesn't fit the Tiger's profile of being highly trained elite troops with access to high tech stuff and it doesn't fit the needs and wants of Yu Jing and it would also bring to life the two never taken* profiles of the Raiden and specifically not the useful profile. At the end of the day once we've stripped the Tiger this far it's no longer a Tiger and would have its own name, AVA and probably a few adjustments to stats. I wouldn't expect them to be allowed to keep Pan-O level of BS, so might as well drop it down to 12. Depending on whether WIP falls as well, we're talking about 19 points for the Combi+LFL profile I think we'd land at a unit that's decent enough and costs 15 or 16 points. I mean, if they had their gear otherwise re-imagined this could be a pretty sweet unit - let's say 20 points for a Heavy Rocket Launcher + LSG profile at BS 12, it wouldn't be the quasi-surprise of the Raiden but it'd also have potential longevity due to Mimetism that the Raiden's higher ARM and BTS couldn't make up for. Yeah, it'd be a more bare-bones Bagh-Mari. * With one known player as the exception
Wouldn’t it be enough if they only get link (well, may be multi-terrain if we ever get to play with it on a regular basis). Why Ltd camo? They already have Mimetism, which is plenty of survival added, especially in a link.
While still paying for the cost of AD4 or without paying for AD4? I.e. do you think it's sufficient that they become poorly equipped KTS at 150% the price? As for Camo, I put forward that Camo is roughly equivalent of AD4 in terms of cost and would offer a different style of both play and deployment for them. For some reason that's devolved to Limited Camo (i.e. an expensive Lunah, but without the good gun)
I put in the Lt. Camo because someone else had suggested the possibility. I don't think it's needed either. It's the chance for a new troop! ;) Honestly, I'd be fine with them not changing points. Just make them Linkable in whatever sectoral. One thing to remember, TS already have the ability to take Multi-terrain instead of Combat Jump. But no one ever does. They would if they had the ability to link!
Not paying AD, as you have pointed out, CB prolly won’t make linkable AD. Even only having core link will make them good enough, and it doesn’t call for comparisons, in faction they’d be still great. Much better than Zhanying for similar points, for example. Forward deployment? Does this allow linking? Camo (while keeping Mimetism) just makes them compete in faction and IMO - it’s for another troop, not Tigers. I don’t see why would they slap Camo on AD troops as a compensation of lost focus (AD)
Zhanying have so much that makes their points tick upwards, Sixth Sense and Breaker Rifle being a large amount of them, and yes a Tiger-like troop would be much leaner and to the point - but on the other hand when it comes to fireteams the Zhanying are complementary troops to heavy infantry while a Tiger-like troop is not discussed to be linkable outside their own unit. I don't think there's much to compete with here. As far as I know only marker states and delayed deployment effects by themselves prevent linking. All CH2:Camo units have CH1:Mimetism. With which units? Guilang have MSV1 and Infiltration. Daofei are HI and have Infiltration. Hac Tao are premium HI and have TO Camo. Looking at other factions, this isn't even remotely similar. The only unit it's similar to is Intruder, but without MSV2 the use case wouldn't be the same. Once you factor in that Tigers don't have HMGs you can limit the vanilla comparisons to Knauf and Lunah who are both going to be better shots with higher damage potential. I'll concede that it's unlikely they will ever properly compensate AD troops for hostile terrain or mission setups. So, while Tigers getting an alternate camo state if they skip AD is not very likely I think that there is (A) room for a similar profile in vanilla and (B) more or less necessary for such a sniper profile in IA. Let's call them Leopard and make their CC stats similar to Kanren.
There are no examples currently, but I think every model with Forward Deployment is an SK (regardless of faction). Not actually a troop type that you'd expect to be linkable in the first place. That'd be the Bao. Need a different name for this new "Tiger-with-camo" unit.
Umbra Legates have forward deployment, are elite troops & are linkable, so CB don’t see it as totally incompatible.
Ryuken-9 (granted, it's only one profile) and Andromeda are LI, Achilles in Hoplite Armour is HI and Post Humans are MI, to add a few to the pile.
That's what I get for not opening Army. And more importantly, Marauders are Core Linkable. OK, looks like Forward Deployment is a usable item, if the goal is to have linkable Tigers.
Wait. Am I hearing of linkable jumpless Tigers with forward deployment here? That is something rather pleasant to hear.
But yes, that is one of the ideas we've been kicking around. The idea is something like the Scots Guard (but better presented), where you have shared AVA between either AD4 or linkable Forward Deploy L(whatever) profiles. Possibly other skills/equipment differences.
