I really should have specified 'ITS-capable list'... And I don't think you want my old-ass Haqq minis, @Xeurian
Yu Jing──────────────────────────────────────────────────9 ZÚYǑNG Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 30) ZÚYǑNG HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 35) ZÚYǑNG Lieutenant Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 27) ZÚYǑNG Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 27) ZÚYǑNG Boarding Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 26) WÚ MÍNG (Fireteam: Duo) Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32) WÚ MÍNG (Fireteam: Duo) Chain Rifle, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25) SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43) DÀOFĚI Spitfire / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 55) 4.5 SWC | 300 PointsOpen in Infinity Army Well, this is all HI and has 9 orders and is ITS legal. Is probably not that good a list, but... it exists I suppose?
Erm... it's short on orders, very short on specialists, short on heavy weapon and lots of hungry hungry hippos. You've also got 3 units that are less likely to be in IA in there. However, you do highlight a concern for IA and that's that at present we need order generators. Zuyong just doesn't work as order generators, they can be a backup generator as well as a backup main punchy-dude, but the sectorial will need stuff that's cheaper than a Weibing with at least AVA 5. How else run Yan Huo duo or get the most out of those Guijia?
I have no idea to be completely honest. Unless we get a new cheap MI unit. That mighy work. But that's depending on a new unit altogether coming into play so... not a good idea to depend on.
You see what I'm getting at? Nigh-impossible to make an ITS-competitive list given current, known-IA unit costs.
Well, I do admit that I have no real competitive sense, so pardon me for not really noticing that. Still, isn't IA like a year or so away? Isn't it a bit early to draw conclusions about it?
Yes. But that's not what @Section9's doing. He's drawing conclusions about current IA units and speculating about IA. Conclusion: ZY are too expensive to be line troops on their own. Speculation: ZY will get cheaper or IA will get a cheap cheerleader or both.
Well, only way I can really see Zuyong getting cheaper without becoming a potato HI is CB re-evaluating the cost of the CC stat and ripping out Kinematika from them. That, or we get our own version of a full AVA MI for the sectorial like Bolts in NTCA for PanO.
No worries. ITS missions is all my group plays, so we're a bit... more sensitive to that. (You don't wanna know the rant I got this morning when cypherkk was talking about Tanko weapons...) I'd phrase that speculation as either Zuyong must get cheaper or IA will get a cheap cheerleader (or both), but yes. Well, we've already had a lot of discussion about how effective any CC stat under 18 or 19 is, so that's a possibility. I really wouldn't wish Dolts on anyone, not even PanO players... They're about as unoptimized/overcosted as old Pheasants are!
I was simply using the NTCA Bolts as an example of a "full AVA MI", since I'm not aware of any other armies that get a full AVA MI beyond the Druze non-aligned army. That being said, I could see a "cheap suit of Medium Infantry armor given to veteran Zhanshi" being developed post all that Uprising stuff as a way of adapting after the whole stuff that went down ( Didn't the Kempeitai bomb a lot of industrial stuff? ). Wishful thinking either way.
Not really. The old Pheasant cost an extra 5 points (or more) that was pure hand-adjustment. This is not true for Bolts, it's just that many Pan-O players have something they think has better gear and ability distribution* for roughly the same points. * Though this is the internet, so that's not how they put it
It won’t help with the bulk of orders we’ll need, but we could get a Strategos 1 Zuyong or Shang Ji. I’m not sure they’d do that considering Sun Tze exists, but I think it’s more likely than something like Netrods. In a similar vein to Netrods, though, we could see higher AVA of messenger or baggage REMs, though that also doesn’t help resolve the all HI fantasy it would appear that most of us want.
I would rather it be mostly HI, not all HI. Like, lotsa HI and a good amount of REMs and maybe an MI unit sounds like it'd be pretty neat if anybody asks me.
Practically speaking I imagine there will have to be non HI, non REM options in the list. It would seem silly to make a sectorial where the only profiles you can take are hackable. You’d basically be insuring a profile tax in requiring someone with fairy dust and an order tax on activating on turns where hacking is still a threat. If I want to opt in on an all HI list, that’s one thing, but I’d hate for it to be mandatory.
Logically speaking, since I know of basically no sectorial or vanilla faction that outright gets little-to-no REM units that isn't Ariadna ( And even then, those Traktors are pretty decent REMs if anybody asks me. ), we can be safe knowing REM units will be available, perhaps with altered AVA. Beyond that, I wouldn't be surprised if the only LI available would be the doctors and engineers ( And even then I'd doubt them being available if news comes around that we're getting Engineer/Doctor HI. ). Pretty sure Warbands and most of the Skirmishers will go poof unless we get new ones by then. Honestly, seeing as we know of at least one new unit in the works and since we've lost like... 7 or so profiles I think after Uprising, I think expecting some sort of new units to come with IA wouldn't be too far fetched-but-is-still-probably-a-stretch-wide-enough-to-be-called-a-cross-country-roadtrip.
I really like the Zuyong in Vanilla. Particularly the Lt. HMG. 1 SWC and automedkit?! I'd take 2 if i could! I have to agree that the Shang Ji at the moment is not worth it. At least in Vanilla. In comparison to Zuyong Combi 27pts, vs. SJ Combi+Lt. Flamethrower 37pts: +3 CC and Shock CC weapon +2 PH +1 ARM +3 BTS Duo Flamethrower Is it worth 10pts more? CC, If someone attacks them it's usually with something far superior. If they have them Martial Arts L1 at the very least, it would be helpful. But I can't see throwing them at anything for the sake of getting them in to CC. If they make the like the Shikami, I'd be down with that. Give them MA Level 3, DA &/or AP Close combat weapons, Kinematika L2. I really would like a good CC heavy armor guy again. 14 PH is not bad but again it's going to be used rarely in CC. For Dodge I guess it's okay but nothing fantastic. ARM 4 and BTS 6 are great. Probably the only things that make it worth them. Duo is pretty useless since you have the EVO Hacker tax. Flamethrower is great, just not sure if it's worth it. If I'm going to upgrade a Zuyong, I'd do a Wu Ming for +5pts. and gain: Combi-Rifle+E/Mitter, Anti-Personel Mines +1 CC +1 PH +1 ARM Duo I think the E/Mitter, Anti-P Mines, and +1 ARM are far more worth it.
I wouldn't say EVO would be that much of a tax if you already had plans on having a use for it being in your list ( Such as a Tiger Soldier or two, perhaps some REMs to buff as well ( Unless I completely misunderstand how TeamPro works. ) ). I mean, I would say the Light Flamethrower is nice. Having an auto-hitting template can be useful for negating negative mod stacking and camo is pretty useful if anyone ever asks me, but... Yeah, I'd say the CC improvements do too little to be really useful while inflating the price a bit. You can say something similar about a lot of units I hear, actually. Too little CC to be useful even as an occasional option to consider beyond self-defense, but so much that it makes a noticeable impact upon the cost.
Wu Ming also don't have any Cubes. Worth considering. Now, Shang-Ji. I don't think Shang-Ji, specifically, would become S5, though I wouldn't dislike it if they did. Let's Reclaim the useless points from CC, which is too low to be worth playing around, for -2 or -3 points Correct the price on the Heavy Rocket Launcher profile, it is 1 points too expensive. Increase WIP to 14, since all known IA troops have WIP 13 this makes them stand out and an option for LT. +1 or +2 points Change their troop type to Veteran, since all known IA troops are basically Line Infantry*. +0 points. Give them Veteran L1. Should be self-explanatory. Roughly +1 points. This should leave the points roughly untouched, with the exception of the HRL profile. Now here comes the real kicker. Remove Paramedic profile from Shang-Ji Remove Spitfire profile from Shang-Ji** Remove the Multi Rifle profile from Shang-Ji and Zuyong** Remove Tinbot profile from Zuyong - see below Introduce Shang-Ji Doctor (41 points) Introduce Shang-Ji Engineer (includes D-Charges, 41 points) Introduce Shang-Ji Killer Hacker (40 points) Up to two Shang-Ji per Fireteam may join any Invincible Army Fireteam. This is "below" ** Is there a point to the Shang-Ji/Zuyong Multi-Rifle profiles? Is there a point to the Shang-Ji Spitfire profile, it's just a bad Zuyong HMG at a premium price most/all of the time? * Which while funny, relying solely on Tigers from HVT: Kidnapping and ITS: Hunting Party is a bit impractical - not to say bad.
