@inane.imp @colbrook OK, so despite the fact that they’re technically contributing to 1’s CC by increasing its burst and dam (by being engaged to his target) they’re not part of the CC as far as the template is concerned because they’re not engaged with 1. Is that right?
No. They're Engaged with the Trooper that fired the DTW which is unaffected by their own DTW: therefore, the Trooper with which they are Engaged is not affected by a DTW. Consequently they aren't hit by a DTW. 1 is Engaged with A. 2, 3 and 4 are Engaged with A. 1 is affected by a DTW. A is not affected by a DTW. 1 is not Engaged with 2, 3 or 4. 2, 3 and 4 aren't Engaged with a Trooper effected by a DTW.
Gotcha. Thanks for going the extra step. Seems like that bullet point could be bit clearer, but that’s par for the course.
You're adding differentiation to this that doesn't exist in the RAW text. It says only: Template Weapons that affect a trooper in Engaged state affect all troopers in that Close Combat, even if some of them are not in direct contact with the Template. So if you agree that 1 is Engaged with A, and 1 is affected by a Template, then ALL troopers in that Close Combat (which would be anyone that is engaged with A) are affected by the DTW, except for the one firing the DTW, because of the explicit rule of DTW not affecting the one firing it. Which is not how I think it actually is intended to work, but based on how you are talking about reading these rules, is how you would have to work it.
Well, truly RAW the template gets cancelled because "Bear in mind that troopers cannot declare Attacks against their friendly troopers." and there's no exception for models that aren't affected by the attack. Or, you could play it the non insane way everybody plays and have the enemy models that actually get touched by the template affected, and the template get cancelled if it touches a model that is not the attacker and actually in CC when touched.
Ok, I'm a bit lost. The template is shot by the target of multiple units reaching B2B (be it a Coordinated order or a Link Team). The shot happens as they are closing in, same as any BS attack declared before they reach B2B. In that case, it affects the attacker(s) whose path went under the template before reaching b2b. Once engaged, that is, the next order after the attackers reached B2B, none of those units can declare BS attacks. Now, if someone else will try to, let's say, drop a template on an engaged enemy troop while cleverly trying to avoid the friendly troop, THEN, the template rule into CC takes effect and affects everyone engaged. Remember, you CAN shoot into engaged enemy troopers. There even is a penalty for shooting into a melee and the risk of hitting your own trooper. The Template into CC rule solves the question of "what if it's a template and not a BS that rolls dice". The answer is "you just burnt your friend"
No, the answer is 'you stopped before you pulled the trigger and didn't burn your friend'. The attack is nullified. Solution: just make certain that you place the template so that your target isn't touching it while they're Engaged. Also it's worth pointing out that on the Order a trooper moves into B2B with an enemy trooper they become Engaged: but only at that point. Events in an order happen temporarily simultaneously but are (generally) spatially distinct: the trooper occupies all locations it moved through for the entire order, but only 1 of those positions is Engaged. But this isn't the issue. The issue is when the trooper (A) fires a DTW at a enemy (1) who has Moved to Engage them (the second diagram). Almost inevitably 1 will be hit by the DTW while they're Engaged with A. Congratulations A, you've just fired a DTW such that it hits a CC that you're involved in. Fortunately troopers can't be affected by their own DTW. Unfortunately troopers 2-4 are also Engaged with A: so they're involved in the same CC as 1, and 1 has been hit by a DTW while Engaged in that CC, consequently 2-4 also get affected by the DTW. That's RAW. I disagree with it: I think that 2-4 shouldn't be affected because they're not Engaged with a model affected by a DTW... But that's not how the rules are written.
The attack wasn't declared against a friendly trooper. Moreover the attack doesn't affect any friendly troopers (the model who declared the attack gets an exception for their own DTWs). But I agree with you about how it should be played.
The thing is rules in this game are not isolated. They work in concordance with one another to maintain the cinematic intent of the game. RAW, the template was not shot into CC, but during the order in which the attackers would reach B2B. At that point, it's the same interaction you get every time someone declares move+cc attack and the ARO to the MOVE part of the order is a BS Attack. Once engaged, if anyone decides to BS a template into the Engaged units, the rule for Templates into Engaged Units goes into effect. So, RAW there is no "the attack is nullified", because for that particular scenario, the rule allows to hit a friendly unit, just like shooting into CC does.
Yeah the rules aren't isolated it's A + B. Everyone in the CC is affected, if your Template affects friendly models it's nullified. The alternative is far worse: it becomes relatively trivial to hit troopers with their own Mines.
If declaring a DTW attack that touches a friendly Trooper counts as declaring an attack against a friendly trooper, it was since it touches a friendly trooper (itself). Technically, whether that friendly Trooper is affected by it doesn't change whether it was declared. So in that case you can never actually fire a DTW. If declaring a DTW attack that touches a friendly Trooper doesn't count as declaring an attack against a friendly Trooper, you can hit friendlies with DTWs anytime. Just depends how dumb you want to get about it. But once you go down the ignore sense in favour of literal contextless RAW, you don't really get to choose where to stop and you can say hello to long, counter productive arguments. Or, as I said you can play it in the way we both agree it is intended and makes sense (only the models actually touched by the template, except the attacker are affected, unless the template touches a model in CC) IMHO it'd be better if the forums provided helpful, sensible answers to questions that actually need answers rather than this kind of literal non-sense.
There's an exception for declaring a DTW Attack that touches yourself: consequently it's legal and it doesn't affect the firer. However, your statement is true if this was a third party making the attack. And I agree that it would be great if we could go 'this is the answer' but we can't. Only @HellLois can do that, and this is the perfect case for it: it's an edge case where the rules are confusing (and the answer that is parsible seems illogica and complicated from a gameplay situation). And I absolutely agree: it seems to me thatalmost everyone plays it that only Trooper 1 would be hit.
