Hi, Some Tohaa players in my meta say that you can choose to fail a guts roll after ignoring damage effects by expending SymbioMates. However, the requirements for Guts rolls do not seem to support this: "Requirements Several events can force a troop to make a Guts Roll: Passing one or more ARM or BTS Rolls. Failing one or more ARM or BTS Rolls, but not remaining in a Null or Immobilized state. Surviving one or more successful Attacks from weapons, types of Equipment or Hacking Programs with the Non-Lethal Trait, or that do not provoke ARM or BTS Rolls." http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Guts_Roll A model expending a SymbioMate does not fulfil any of those requirements. You could try to read the last point in that way, but I don't think it would be a correct reading of the meaning of those words. HMGs and Combi Rifles are not "weapons... that do not provoke ARM or BTS rolls" for example - even if they don't do so in a particular instance. Some players have pointed to this passage in the SymbioMate rules to justify allowing Guts moves (presumably because it is phrased like an option might be in English): "Using a SymbioMate also avoids having to perform a Guts Roll in that same Order." However that sentence gives no permission to make a Guts roll either, just a permission not to make one. The question is then, can a model who expends a SymbioMate to ignore damage effects make a guts roll / and / or deliberately fail that guts roll if it chooses to?
I liked @Teslarod 's argument against you being able to Guts roll on an attack you cancelled with your 'mate. http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/50103-symbiomate-guts/?do=findComment&comment=973077 But it's worth noting that it came after the post where @ijw indicated he considered it to be optional (same thread). Here's hoping it's in the big FAQ we're getting soon :)
I don't really see this as all that unclear, if you're not making ARM checks there's nothing to trigger a Guts Roll. When a Mate is used, all damage and effects of the incoming attack are ignored. Which effect triggers a Guts Roll? The incoming attack, which effects have been ignored. Edit: Oh, and I'm actually playing Tohaa primarily right now.
The argument (which I don't personally agree with really) is that you meet the third dot point requirement for a guts roll. There was an attack, there was no ARM or BTS rolls, the model survived, therefore it "Survived one or more successful Attacks from weapons ... that do not provoke ARM or BTS Rolls." Truthfully I think this bullet point was only ever meant to apply to attacks from weapons that intrinsically by their nature do not provoke arm rolls. such as forward observing, not any time an attack doesn't provoke an ARM/BTS roll.
Like I said in the OP though, if that third bullet point allowed you to Guts against any attack that didn't end up forcing an ARM/BTS roll, you could Guts against attacks that missed, or lost the FTF roll etc etc etc.
Yes. But what's also obvious was that the HSN3 rules for Tohaa were written by someone who is, ah, a "fan" of the faction. So I wouldn't be surprised if the official tagline is "rule it in whatever way is most beneficial for artichokes."
question dose become, what defines a successful attack? Unless hte rules state otherwise I wouldnt argue an attack canceled by a mate was successful. Also burn Tohaa
From face to face rolls: Both fail. No one achieved their goal. One fails and the other passes. The trooper that succeeded wins the Face to Face Roll and achieves its goal. Both pass. The trooper with the higher successful die cancels the enemy successes, wins the Face to Face Roll and achieves its goal. From BS attack results: For each successful BS Attack Roll, the target must make an ARM/BTS Roll (see Damage). I have omitted the language regarding criticals. I pulled this language from the wiki so i’m not sure if it lines up with the rule book
The Symbiomate rules intrinsically tell us they were successful: If its user, the trooper who the SymbioMate has been assigned to, is in the Active Symbiont Armor state and receives a successful Attack and declares the use of his SymbioMate, he will not perform an ARM/BTS or the correspondent roll, and the Damage and effects of the Special Ammunition or Attack will be ignored.
I'd very much like to have this original question answered if possible @HellLois . It causes some disagreements in our gameplay group ;)
Here's hoping that the answer comes out against allowing the Tohaa unit to use Guts to their advantage both becuase 1) It's the strongest interpretation of the rules, and 2) The incredible brokenness that is symbiomates does not need to get even stronger.
As usual, I think the content of the ruling is not as important as us all being on the same page, but for what its worth utilizing Symbiomates AND wanting to use the Guts check feels like an exploit to me. I could work out whether its an 'available reading fron the text' or not, but ... doesnt it just feel rather too cute?
Well it's kind of a big deal because it's the difference between making linked Sukaels on overwatch either completely invulnerable to enemy fire without critting, or making them require another order to deal with. But yes I agree, it does feel like an exploit to have the best of both worlds.
it should all be noted this is a discussion had before. HT is asking for @HellLois to clarrify how they work in a more formal manner however
Ooooooh, good point. Best outcome would be that they have to make Guts checks but cannot choose to auto-fail them. But that would be a pretty big exception to the general rules, so is unlikely.
