Okay, firstly, I'm going to be upfront and mention that I am still a relatively new player to the game. Been only to a couple of local tournaments and don't have that large a number of matches under my belt. And furthermore, I have yet to put these units, barring the Zuyong, to practice. so I am in no capacity whatsoever an authority on what is ''effective''. Now, with all that out of the way, I'd like to know what all of yours opinions ( Whether they are being used in Vanilla or the Sectorial. ( Though I realize the latter would only apply to the Wu Ming. ) ) are about these three Heavy Infantry units. As for my opinion, I've only formulated some very basic ideas on how I can see myself personally using these units: Zuyong: Very basic and comparatively cheap HI. Pretty great as a Forward Observer too, if you ask me, since it's durability allows it to survive the trek too the objective and do the button mashing. Besides that, I do find the HMG option to be a rather interesting one from an SWC perspective, and considering it only costs 0.5 SWC and 4 more points to go from just an HMG to an HMG and AutoMediKit. Oh, and the fact all of it's profiles have 2 Breaker Pistols does add to it's combat potential in the 8'' range, especially if you gave it the HMG profile, and I can even see those being useful on the Missile Launcher Profile too. Wu Ming: Honestly, at first they looked like ''Zuyong, except they can equip different guns'' to me, but after looking at them a bit more, I'd say their main draw, to me at least, would be their comparatively unique weaponry when it comes to YJ HI, such as the Panzerfaust profile, the Chain Rifle+SMG one, the MULTI Rifle+Launcher profiles and the CR+E/Mitter and Antipersonnel Minesprofile. That, and I can definitely see there being use to be found in the FO profile. Not that sure about their value as a Core Fireteam in the ISS though, since it seems both rather pricey and it does mean you are missing out on the not-suicidal Orders and Smoke coverage of the CG+Kuang Shi Fireteam. Shang Ji: Honestly... I still can't quite wrap my head around what these guys are supposed to do. All I have managed to really notice about them so far is that they have LFTs attached to their Combi Rifles, they are the cheapest HI with an AHD, and they have the only 0 SWC non-LT TinBot B. If they have anything else of note, I've yet to realize it. Looking forward to further discussions and your opinions! Thanks for viewing this, at least.
Zuyong are "ok" the HMG profiles are the most interesting ones the LT option especially allowing you to get a super cheap discount on SWC is pretty cool. Wu Ming are great in link teams. Don't touch Shang ji they're garbage.
But are Shang Ji really garbage? I mean, surely they have to have something to offer, right? Also, taking a second look at Wu Ming fireteams, yeah, I can see them doing pretty good. And a MadTraps or Missile Launcher Zhanying added in to boot sounds pretty painful too. ( I imagine it to be more likely to be the MadTraps Zhanying. ) Still, seems pretty pricey, probably nearing ~180-200 points I'd bet.
Shang Ji aren't really garbage. They're just 'non-optimal'. As specialists: in Cranes or Hac Tao are a better choice as a HI Hackers and Wu Ming or ZY are cheaper HI specialists. Spoiler Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 6 HAC TAO Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 70) HAC TAO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 67) CRANE IMPERIAL AGENT Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 53) SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43) WÚ MÍNG (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31) ZÚYǑNG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 28) 1.5 SWC | 292 Points Open in Infinity Army As fire support: Hsien or Hac Taos are better, Wu Ming and ZY are Cheaper. Spoiler Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 HAC TAO HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 68) HSIEN Lieutenant HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 61) SHÀNG JÍ Spitfire / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 42) ZÚYǑNG (AutomediKit) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (2 | 39) WÚ MÍNG HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 39) 10 SWC | 249 Points Open in Infinity Army DaoFei do the same job as them, but with Infilitration and Camo. This is particularly noticable on the DaoFei Spitfire Profile vs the Shang Ji one. The DaoFei will start in Spitfire range, so you can use it effectively to get under the guns of linked MLs etc whereas the Shang Ji needs to fight to get into that range (but doesn't benefit from the huge move of the Su-Jian when doing so). The only real way to make decent use of them is by trying to make use of Duo in Vanilla. Which isn't actually a great strategy (mianly because the TinBot is on a less than useful profile so the Duo is always a compromise). Shang-Ji suffer from the same problems as Mobile Brigada, ORCs and (to a lesser extent) Suryats and Janissaries. They're solid, but other options do the job better.
Zuyong LT with HMG is interesting in that he's a HI with 1 SWC. But that's it. Wu Ming can be deadly in ISS in a link team. Shang-Ji is surplus to requirements at the moment. The problem with YJ is that there are so many HI choices, some will inevitably be discarded in favour of the good ones.
Shang Ji will find they'll place once Invincible Army hits. Fireteam options (hopefully with some mixed link options) and a lack of a lot of the other things that compete with them in Vanilla will make them hit the table more.
We gotta cover some history for this. There used to be Invincibles and Wu Ming. Same statline, Wu Ming didn't have Cubes and had a slightly different weapons load (Multirifle+LGL being the critical one). But at the time, Heavy Infantry moved 4-2, and BTS was a mod like Camo (penalty to hacker's WIP, not armor). Then came the Shang Ji. Only had a cobirifle+LFT, but multirifles kinda sucked then. More importantly, it was 4-4 MOV and BTS6, which put even an Interventor down to a 9 to hack it to immobility. It was still ARM4, though. All the other 4-4HI were ARM3 (Domaru, Haramaki, Teutons, Riots, etc). So in N2 the Shang Ji was pretty damn superior. Then N3 dropped, and the Invincibles became Zuyong. Wu Ming kept the old armor (and ARM4), Zuyong went to ARM3 and lower BS. How BTS worked changed (it went from being a to-hit mod to being armor), making BTS6 much less valuable. Admittedly, Shang Ji did go down in price by about 5 points. But yeah, the Shang Ji just isn't superior enough now.
So, Shang Ji just aren't there yet I see. Kinda wonder if CB will be in any way interested in re-working the unit ( Actually, pretty sure there's even a thread about brainstorming up ideas on how to rework it come to think of it now. ) I suppose if there ever is a time to to rework the Shang Ji, it would be around the release of the Invincible Army sectorial ( By the way, slight side note, where does Corvus Belli even plan on finding enough units for both of these rumoured YJ sectorials? Aren't we in a slight shortage ATM? ) Also, have been getting really good mileage out of Zuyong Forward Observers. A 2W 13WIP specialist for a bargain 28 points seems pretty damn solid if anybody asks me.
Wu Ming got pretty seriously reworked for N3, lots of profiles added. As I see it, the Zuyong are supposed to be the Core Fireteam for the Invincible Army. The problem is that they're about 2 points too expensive to do that easily: Yu Jing ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 ZÚYǑNG Lieutenant (AutomediKit) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1 | 39) ZÚYǑNG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 28) ZÚYǑNG Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 30) ZÚYǑNG Boarding Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 26) ZÚYǑNG MULTI Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 31) 1.5 SWC | 154 Points Open in Infinity Army The closest Core links in the game are Hassassin Muyibs, Corregidor Wildcats, and JSA DoTanko: Spoiler: Spoiled for length Hassassin Bahram ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 MUYIB Lieutenant Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher (Normal and Smoke Ammo.) / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 23) MUYIB Doctor Plus (MediKit) Rifle + Light Shotgun, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) MUYIB (X Visor) Spitfire, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 28) MUYIB (Minelayer) Rifle + Light Shotgun, D.E.P. Antipersonnel Mines, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24) MUYIB (Forward Observer) Rifle + Light Shotgun, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24) 2.5 SWC | 126 Points Open in Infinity Army Jurisdictional Command of Corregidor ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 WILDCAT Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19) WILDCAT Engineer Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) WILDCAT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24) WILDCAT Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades, Deployable Repeater / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 17) WILDCAT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (2 | 20) 3.5 SWC | 103 Points Open in Infinity Army Japanese Secessionist Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 3 OYAMA Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 28) DOMARU Spitfire / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (2 | 39) TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32) TANKŌ Flammenspeer, Contender / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23) TANKŌ Blitzen, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23) 3.5 SWC | 145 Points Open in Infinity Army ~100 points is just too cheap for a Core link of HI. But ~145 is probably the upper limit, and that's 10 points less than the current Zuyong. Also, it's just about required to take the Zuyong HMG Automedikit LT due to SWC problems. I mean, 3 heavy weapons takes all 6 SWC right now, and doesn't leave any for hackers or Tinbots. And that's undesirable.
A full functional HI core of Zuyong could be like this: Yu Jing──────────────────────────────────────────────────5 ZÚYǑNG Lieutenant (AutomediKit) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1 | 39) ZÚYǑNG Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (2 | 36) ZÚYǑNG Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 30) ZÚYǑNG Boarding Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 26) ZÚYǑNG (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 28) 3.5 SWC | 159 PointsOpen in Infinity Army HMG and Missiles, Shotgun and rifles covering all ranges make this Core hard. Domarus/Tankos cover the same, but doesn't have HMG (lil bit cheaper).
If Zuyong were BS12 and no Breaker Pistols they'd be ideal in their role as line troops ie literally a LI that was bumped up to HI and nothing else. You could probably shave somewhere around 3-4pts off each profile like that. That'd bring them down to Muyib like prices without all of the advantages Muyibs have. Even just no Kinematica or Breaker Pistols would probably bring them down by ~2pts.
I can understand about the Breaker Pistols, if those were just pistols the price could be 2-3 points cheaper. We cannot compare Zuyong with Muyibs: Muyibs are IL. (1W, 2ARM, and shock can block Dogged) and have BS12, the longest range they have are HRL (32) and Spitfire(24). Yes, I'm agree about getting cheaper Zuyong: Pistols, and perhaps no Kinematics.
I wouldn't be too stoked to see the Zuyong lose their Breaker Pistols and get a lower BS, but that being said, I wouldn't mind seeing Kinematika leave and/or the CC stat going down a smidge. Would also be neat if they or the Shang Ji got a regular Hacking device with the sectorials hopefully eventual arrival.
I don't think they want to decrease the price of the Zuyong much further, and let's face it the dual Breaker Pistols probably costs about 1 points and gives a bit of flexibility, particularly to the HMG. I'd also note that at BS 13 I don't think they're paying premium the way an LI or MI would, so decreasing BS wouldn't net much more than 1 point, either. CC 15 is also pretty much as low as it's going to get for a HI. If we truly, truly, want bums in space suits, then I guess they could device something, but I don't think it'd be Zuyong, and I'm not entirely positive they'd be linkable nor non-Impetuous or even regular.
Yeah, the Breaker Pistols actually seem like, and in my experience are, rather useful pieces of equipment, even on the non-''the primary weapon gets a -3 MOD in the 8'' range'' since Breaker Ammunition is actually rather nice when shooting at units with less than great BTS stats or those that are in cover ( Since Breaker ammunition does deny the +3 Cover Mod to your ARM roll, since it forces a BTS roll, does it not? ). Similar reason why I do enjoy Zhanyings a decent bit as well, due to their Breaker Combi Rifles being surprisingly solid guns.
100% agree ZY are awesome the way they are. I'm just pointing out that they have space underneath them but are arguably crowding out SJ above.
I honestly think Shang-Ji are going to be out-crowded regardless of whether Zuyong are made... simpler... or not. Shang-Ji needs something other than a light flamethrower and a bit better ARM/BTS to motivate their existence. Also, honestly, there's something funky going on with Shang-Ji and points cost. Looks like they're paying premium taxes all over the place. Comparing Shang-Ji with Wu Ming, I'd expect the Shang-Ji HMG to be 40 points, not 42. Well, okay, 41 points because of the damned useless Shock CCW.
Random speculation: Bostria mentioned another super heavy armour. I wonder if Shang-ji might get al-fasid'ed and become another S5 block of metal because people love those. Shang Ji are also the only heavy infantry in yu jing not to get resculpted. Which is a strange honour if they were to remain exactly as they were or similar in the future.
I'd totally run a link of S5 heavies. I'm one of those people who love those kind of models. I play Yu Jing because I love heavy infantry and ours are awesome. The dream is to run a list where every model is in power armour. I want our HI to be the biggest and the baddest, and IA is supposed to be the best of even those!
Cover adds to ARM or BTS http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Cover But Breaker still halves the target's BTS so can be useful against enemies with roughly equal amounts, and it's rarely at a disadvantage compared to normal ammo (Interventors seem like the main target that would laugh at Breaker).
